So this has been in draft form since December , but it is a question I’ve gotten a few times over the years, and something I’ve asked other older women (who are wiser and have seen more than me), as well for their own personal thoughts. Even though it looks like a simple yes or no answer kind of question, it can be complicated depending on the circumstance.
In short, I don’t have a perfect, clear-cut answer, BUT I can give you some thoughts from people I admire, and using my own experience some.
Personally, and I understand some won’t agree with me, I do think a lot of good can come from women ministering to other women and using their gifts as a blessing (in general) in a community. I think it can be grossly misused, however, like anything that is supposed to be good and helpful. I think there are clear boundaries where women are not supposed to cross, such as being a Pastor or any kind of teacher or leader over men in a Christian environment. This unfortunately sounds vague and unhelpful, but again, I guess why it’s taken me so long to even publish this post, even though people keep asking, is because this topic is more than I am able to define myself.
I don’t believe we can just dispense with the biblical suggestions in Titus of older women using their hopefully gained wisdom, experience, perspective from mistakes made in the past, and aged-grace they seem to possess in helping younger women to get through this journey staying in God’s will easier. There’s a reason why these instructions are in the Bible, and when older women forgo their calling to minister in those ways to younger women who truly need their guidance, our entire society crumbles. But then when I think of examples of the older women, even Christian ones, out there right now, they are often telling younger women the wrong things – even going so far as to mock trying to stay pure for a husband (Sheila Gregorie)! The advice out there, from older Christian women often in self-made leadership positions, is mostly all akin to, “anti-help,” in my estimation.
The bulk of advice from popular older Christian women, honestly, makes me sick to my stomach. It’s probably the evidence of decline toward the (more than likely still far off) end, where the Church collectively leaves God altogether, and starts officially worshiping idols (hopefully it doesn’t get that bad). It can’t be a good sign that even the older women are leading us astray, or having public tantrums on twitter, or embarrassing public meltdowns like Beth Moore had not too long ago.
But with all the negative attention female ministries (ministers?) are getting, I have seen some positive things come from ones that seem good.
Something I’ve told an email friend in relation to this recently, is the example of a Christian Mom’s Group I’ve been going to. It is a group with mostly larger families that (mostly all) homeschool. It is a wonderful group and surprisingly close-knit for that many people in one place all at the same time. We’re actually, I believe, one of the smallest family that goes, with only 3 kids! The group is basically like a Christian-moms’ book club 🙂 with the book we’ve been reading this past year being, The Mission of Motherhood, by Sally Clarkson.
Clarkson is what I would say a real life Proverbs 31 woman fulfilling her Titus 2 role now that she’s older and has figured out how to raise godly children into adulthood. I haven’t researched her past too well, so there could be something off I don’t know about. But her book, filled with tons of her own life examples and advice on basically how to be a good, Christian mother, is just invaluable. I mean seriously, imagine if the real Proverbs 31 woman took the time to write an entire book on LOTS of the topics, hard questions, faith issues etc. about motherhood – THAT is what her book has been like for all of us. Yes, there have been some moms who have felt, “uncomfortable,” or threatened by her success and “idealistic,” suggestions, but most have used it as inspiration and conviction to do better. Most have admitted that she’s made them a much better mom, and the group itself, has made them better moms just through the accountability. But it wouldn’t have even been a “thing,” if Clarkson hadn’t used her gift in writing her book in the first place (and she’s written many others).
So… one real-life Proverbs 31 woman using her gifts to minister to more women than she could probably count, has had a major impact on all of our lives – in measurable, real life moments! That isn’t a small thing! It doesn’t just affect us moms personally, but our kids, and our husbands, and our neighbors and even strangers we end up meeting. It’s been weird seeing the effects of just a simple group like this ripple out much farther than I ever imagined.
And it’s made me really look at the women who see someone like Clarkson and feel negative feelings and emotions (like envy or snarkiness), and feel so sorry for them that they’re completely missing the blessing of her kindness and gifts to us! Yes, she’s a real life Proverbs 31 woman in many ways, yes, she’s successful in her roles, but I still don’t understand women who feel, “threatened,” or, “intimidated,” by that for some reason. To me, she’s someone to look up to. Another role model or type of mentor-figure, if you can call a book author a mentor (?).
I rarely agree with everything I read, except the Bible, so her book is no different… there are some topics I wish she were more honest about, but for the most part, she does stick to biblical advice. She’s gentle when talking against feminism, moms who choose or need to work, or women who use daycare, which fits with her personality. But she also makes it very obvious that the overall impact of her book is still dramatically pro-stay-at-home-moms, pro-homeschooling, etc. The science-loving part of me wishes she went into more of the hard evidence against daycares on baby and toddlers’ brain developments… at the least to try to be more convincing of Truth, or the evidence against public schools on the kind of information they feed our kids. But at least she’s confronting other topics (motherhood attitudes) that not many people seem to touch. And it’s working, many of the moms actually feel conviction or acknowledge how they’re making changes!
The Bad Side of Female Leadership – When it Goes Bad, It Really Goes Bad
Let’s start with Lysa Terkeurst… a lonnng time ago, probably 10 years ago, I used to read her blog over at Proverbs 31 Ministries, and I liked it. Somewhere along the way, the messages started to feel like they lacked spiritual depth, as though they were only scratching the surface, or circling the same topics again and again. It may not still be like that, I haven’t read there in years – and it is rotating authors, so maybe some rotated out, but I longed for something deeper, something that helped in my role as a wife and mother.
But where did Lysa go wrong? I don’t know specifics, since I’m not extremely well acquainted with everything she is or has done, but it seemed when news of her husband’s affair came out, that she was always on tour, always writing something new (she’s written 16 books total – that books take A LOT of time and energy and devotion), Bible studies (that take even more time than books to produce, sometimes with videos accompanying them – which she did do – in different countries at that!). Her, “ministry,” quite honestly from an outsider’s perspective inspecting it after her husband went astray, looked like it was the total and sole focus on her life while her family stood on the sidelines. For a wife and mother of five children, this is wrong. There’s a huge sacrifice, or, “cost,” to putting your ministry above your husband and children, and although her children deny that is what happened, it’s hard to see her schedule in those years leading up to it, and *not* come away with the thought that she was neglecting some major things on the home-front. Is a woman, “ministering,” wrong? No, according to Paul, but maybe part of the reason why he mentioned older women was because the demands of children and supporting a husband would be a lot less in that stage of life. Lysa’s been doing this as they were young, little, developing, and needing her each day to be there.
Even if her neglect isn’t what inadvertently caused her husband to stray, living a life that ostentatiously puts your family on the back-burner, all so that you can promote yourself and your self-defined, “ministry,” to strangers (instead of your own family), should be seen for what it is. A Christian woman neglecting her role as wife and mother should (hopefully) produce guilt or shame when she’s realized what she’s done. Unfortunately for Lysa, even though she’s managed reconciliation and prevented divorce, there was no public acknowledgment of anything she may have done to contribute to their marriage problems, let alone any acknowledgment of how little she was actually a wife and mother.
Healthy shame leads to realizing what’s important… that we’ve been off on our personal spiritual journeys and pursuits, perhaps she realized this, cut back on her schedule, and just didn’t let her followers know (it did look like she cut back, but that could have been from the divorce). One thing I LOVED about Pilgrim’s Progress was that it didn’t (at all) shrink away from confronting the necessity of shame in helping to get us back on the right path and obtain humility when we mess up, and especially acknowledging our past sins when trying to witness to others! What a beautiful book it was and so good to read it again. We all get off course at some point, but unfortunately right now the popular theme is to avoid feeling ashamed at all costs! I’ve seen Christian memes from Christian women leaders that proclaim that feeling shame at all, is spiritually wrong! In Pilgrim’s Progress, there’s even a scene where Christian and his journey partner Hopeful, were whipped so that they could learn from their waywardness, and if I remember right, the one disciplining them was an angel of God. Discipline is good. God disciplines those He loves. Shame, in it’s right form to correct us when we get off track, is just as necessary as discipline is, because it often brings a turn around.
Guilty Conscience –> Conviction –> Shame for having failed God –> Confession –> Repentance –> Change
The fact that her children and husband lost out on having a wife and mother who was actually there, can’t be fully made-up for. When Art Terkeurst (Lysa’s husband)’s affair came out, it completely wrecked their adult daughter, and almost ruined her own marriage. So yes, our mess-ups in life and marriage even impact our children when they’re adults! I’m not saying Art isn’t at fault for his own choice to have a long-going affair, but affairs (from what I’ve studied psychologically) almost never start without the other partner giving them an emotional or sexual reason to be that tempted. The only exception are serial cheaters who have a character disorder/personality disorder, which Art does not seem to have (only one, very hard to quit affair).
It’s typically been a role of male missionaries or Pastors to travel or go on speaking engagements, because mothers are biblically called to be, “keepers of the home,” literally holding down the home-front. Which brings me to the next point…
Lysa preached Sunday sermons at her own church and others fairly frequently, something I only found out when researching what may have happened to damage her relationship with her husband. It seems the women who do this, that I’ve watched personally in real life, tend to emasculate their husbands just by simply being in spiritual authority over them in this way. Not only is it biblically wrong according to Paul in 1 Timothy 2, but when a wife becomes her husband’s “Pastor,” even for temporary sermons, she’s completely inverting the kind of natural relationship the Bible says a wife and husband should have, where she submits to him in everything, as she would unto the Lord. When Lysa became Art’s Pastor, he was suddenly thrown under her spiritual authority and leadership.
For a marriage, I think it could possibly turn the husband completely off sexually, to have to abdicate his role of leadership and headship over her, submit to her leadership publicly as he supports her disobedience to Scripture – it sounds humiliating and emasculating, even if only subconsciously (some men may feel this, but they’d never admit this). We know a family member who chooses to live this way, as a female Pastor, and no surprise, they’ve had recurrent issues with his infidelity. It sounds like the perfect recipe for an affair… if another submissive, feminine woman comes along and decides she thinks the emasculated husband is perfect – looks up to him and follows his lead on things, it can spark feelings he doesn’t feel anymore for his emasculating wife. Men need to feel needed, masculine, and capable as both provider and leader over their wife/household.
Loud and Proud Divorcees are Leading the Way
I’ve been sent links to other female ministers, one even somewhat connected to the old church social circle we used to attend a couple of years ago, and it’s amazing to me how so many divorcees are holding themselves up as leaders to be modeled after, and at the same time, wanting younger women to respect them and their mistakes as part of their, “journey.” Their mistakes are holy and glorified. Their, “hot mess,” (messy divorces) as they call it, is held up as a role model for their capitalized success at leadership. There’s zero repentance, zero focus on whatever they may have done wrong to contribute to their divorce, and a very strong, “you don’t need no man,” vibe from their blogs/websites. Most are still single and divorced, or married a second time, but to a man they disrespect publicly. It’s extremely disheartening to read the blogs like this. I’ve only come across one older leader of a women’s Bible study who was divorced, who actually was humble enough to talk about what she did wrong and how she personally contributed to the demise of her first marriage – it was so refreshing. And her honesty was beautiful, and so needed as she gave it to us as a warning not to be like how she was in her past! How many female ministry leader divorcees do you know who are like that? Again… I’ve only encountered one!
This post is already too long, but other examples are:
Beth Moore –
- Beth Moore going off publicly to get on the #MeToo campaign (and I used to love her! I attended a couple of her studies before I realized she had some major biblical flaws in her reasoning)
- Beth Moore’s letter about female leadership/women’s ministeries (calling people who don’t want her preaching to men misogynists)
- Beth Moore getting a man kneel in front of many women, to apologize for the sins of all men (very very disturbing) not only is this biblically wrong, to ask for forgivenness when the perpetrators aren’t present or consenting on their behalf, it just smacked of ridiculous social justice warrior type behavior
- Shelia Gregorie’s public fight online with a pastor, then slandering him due to him calling her out on her unreasonable behavior (I watched it all happen, and he was right – she acted nuts!)
- Sheila Gregorie’s overall very unbiblical teachings on submission being only contigent on a husband’s worthiness
- Teaching women that Esther’s Submission was wrong, that Vashti’s example was the right way to behave (Beth Moore did this, too, it was how I finally woke up from following her reasoning)
- Shelia Gregorie mocking virginity and women who wait to have sex until marriage, and then men who desire that ideal
And I’m also including the many other authors who are in agreement with these women. We are having an epidemic of Christian female leaders who are destroying biblical Truth, even going so far as to mock it, unchallenged.
These examples, as you can see, are so bad they promote the idea that women shouldn’t be using their gifts at all! This is the consequence of Christian women like Beth Moore, Sheila Gregorie, and Lysa Terkeurst recklessly misusing their opportunities to teach Titus 2 concepts. Who is going to trust them? When Christian female, “leaders,” act in these completely unbiblical ways, they lose their witness and rightfully so.
Hopefully with all these examples above, a reader and fellow Christian can see it just hasn’t been working out too well to hold up females as pseudo pastors, because that’s what they’ve become in effect, when growing such large ministries. Maybe it goes to their heads in a way, but one thing is for certain (and I’m sorry in advance that it sounds so unkind to these women and their families, but this needs to be said):
These women grow such large ministries that they become almost like heads of the households for other Christian wives to follow. This in effect leads other men’s wives to follow that female minister (like Beth Moore) on theological questions or topics, instead of her husband’s leadership.
Paul made this statement for a reason: ” let the wives ask their husbands at home”
It’s not that I believe women can’t minister to others in different ways and in maybe using their gifts, but in teaching biblical things outside of Titus 2, it does seem to get fuzzy on what may be right, and what may be wrong. I don’t hold all the answers, but I did think this was a good question I’ve gotten from readers a few times in the past.
Can Women Minister in General?
Are MANY of them getting it wrong, acting unashamed, embarrassing fellow Christian women who are supposed to look up to them.? Yes 😦
May we pray for God to give us a revival, where older women who are actually qualified will start teaching and helping younger women to what God’s called them to.