Rebuttal to Woman Trying to Silence Men’s Opinions of Standards of Beauty

I had a recent comment on a post from last year about men preferring women without tattoos (to be in serious relationships with, versus just casual sex).  The commenter went into great detail to make many points that are based on female-centered logic that completely disregards what or how men may think.  Replying within the comment seemed easiest, but then another comment (from the same person) appeared, and I decided maybe a post was easier instead of replying within another… pages long… comment!

From commenter Abbie Brown (keep in mind, this is her 2nd comment, she’s replying to my initial responses to her first comment… this will probably be confusing but I’ll try to keep the responses separated by different font forms) –

 

Thank you for responding to promptly, it was a lot to read, but I addressed most of your points I think:

From my initial response (continued in italics): Noting in this article says this is ever about a woman’s value or worth. You’re putting that emphasis on tattoos (how men see you) by your own rationalizing. And this is already proven with scientific studies that it’s not just about how men see women, but how society in general (especially professional people or upper class society) sees women with visible tattoos.

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I’m just quoting your original post regarding a woman’s worth:
Yes, she is like a beautiful piece of fine art – worth millions of dollars – and yet she’s been disfigured by markings all over one of her arms… leaving the artwork, that would have been worth millions, virtually worthless.”

My response (continued in bolded format): You claimed I was saying she was valueless and worthless, as a person.  Nothing in that post was talking about a woman’s personal worth, it was only talking about the issue of superficial beauty, which is a completely separate part of her, and yes, can be diminished or destroyed.  Nothing was ever claiming a person’s outward beauty accounts for the whole of a person’s value and worth as a human being.  

 

From Abbie Brown (continued in normal font): “Additionally, I can assure you that corporate America is changing in the way it views people with piercings, tattoos, and weird colored hair, because enough people with them are changing the stigma. My ability to take responsibility and do my job has nothing to do with my tattoos or piercings, and companies are realizing this. Especially as they delve into hiring people between the ages of 18-35; it’s pretty much the norm at this point.

It’s interesting you cite this generation as being the group who gets companies to hire them no matter their piercings or tattoos.  According to employment rates, marriage status, and home ownership, this generation is failing in all those areas that used to signify success.  They’re not able to buy homes, many are considered unemployable, many companies consider their college degrees to be effectually useless (!), and it’s well documented most in this group are not even able to repay their student loans (most have defaulted)!  This is *not* a successful generation when you compare them to the Gen Xer’s and Boomer’s and what they were able to accomplish in all those things.  Gen Y (and younger) have had to deal with more than the older generations had to as well, regarding all those cited issues.  I don’t think disfiguring themselves to make employment even harder is a good idea.

Obviously there still exist people with hang ups, or turn a blind eye to baseless assumptions based on some ink or a piercing, but I’m confident we as a society can move past that superficiality.

I wonder if you’re also confident this generation can repay their student loans, find gainful employment with their debt-laden college degrees, be able to buy homes before age 30….  I’m usually optimistic, but the stats on this aren’t what you’re making them out to be (successful).
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That’s actually a lie you tell yourself daily to explain why you would ever dress up or try to look nice. Yes, it’s for yourself. But it’s also *very important* to realize you’re doing it for others, too, even if you have to lie to yourself about it.

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I mean…you’re just wrong about that. I wear jeans and hoodie to work most days, I don’t wear make-up, I keep my hair short and easy to style. I’m about comfort in my day to day, not out trying to pick up a guy at the office. Also, there’s a distinct difference between wearing a nice outfit for an important meeting, and dolling up everyday to find a man. (I mean if that’s your goal, more power to you, but again it’s not my priority in life).

Ok, maybe you’re truly an outlier who never wears makeup or dresses up, have you heard the phrase, “the outliers prove the rule?”  Women like you are outliers for a reason, most women, especially professional women, do dress nice and wear tasteful makeup.  I remember reading some study not too long ago that women who wore makeup to work were treated and perceived as being more professional than the women who didn’t.  They also tended to make higher salaries.  Wearing makeup to work is a plus, not a minus, it really can dramatically improve a woman’s face in ways that the human brain reacts to positively (measured scientifically).  Most women don’t wear makeup to work just to attract men, but they *are* doing it for how it affects the way others perceive them and treat them, along with doing it for themselves.

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That makes sense given that our culture allows women to even murder the baby inside them without needing to ask a man’s (the baby’s father’s) permission. Of course you don’t think about how your behavior would affect your husband. You would never care about his wishes/desires, right? LOL Liar.

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I’m gonna skip the murdering babies bit, cause that’s conflating a very serious and nuanced issue with getting a tattoo…

But it is a valid point that our society has degraded to the point where of course you wouldn’t care about what your husband thinks concerning body choices, women aren’t even expected to care about a husband’s or boyfriend’s feelings/desires on whether or not they murder his unborn baby.  Women don’t need to ask permission from her husband before deciding (on her own) to kill a father’s unborn child, so why should I assume a woman would automatically care about asking his thoughts on a tattoo?

That’s not what I said, I said that my husband would not get to decide what I do with my body, and vise versa. My getting a tattoo does not affect him, nor does dying my hair purple, or getting a 15th piercing.

Except you’re ignoring that it really could affect him, and your children, in the way people in your community may choose to interact with you.  Or in how your husband’s employer would see him (possibly) when you show up to functions.  Or in how your kids’ teachers may judge them, according to the way their mom dresses/looks/behaves.  People make those kinds of subtle judgments all the time, and yes, what you choose to do to your hair or  body can affect your employment negatively, again impacting them all financially if you’re needed to work.

Things that I would include my husband in on: getting a pet, moving to another city/state for work, getting a joint bank account, our next vacation, if I’m gonna be out of town for a couple weeks, asking what take out we should get for dinner, etc… You’re conflating a multitude of possible scenarios and conversations that can exist within a relationship or marriage. Not asking permission to do with my body what I want, is not the same as not caring about his needs and expectations. But I also wouldn’t want to be with a man that expects me to change for him, and that goes both ways.

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Again with the psycho-babble of, “Don’t worry, we’re all beautiful!” It’s just not even scientifically true. There are many many studies out there that prove what beauty is in a female face/form. People are judging others all the time, whether they like it or not. Does a person’s beauty have to define them or their value? Definitely no. But it does say something about a person when they don’t do what they can to take care of themselves and present themselves well. Is it fair that society judges the outside (and sometimes doesn’t care about the inside of a person’s character)? No, it’s not fair, but scientifically, it’s just how our brains respond. We have to train ourselves to think differently.

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Yes, there have been studies that show what the brain perceives as beauty. There are also studies that show how beauty has evolved over time. Not to mention different cultures have their own definition of beauty. This might actually include being extra voluptuous, having multiple face piercings, having an elongated neck, or yes, even tattoos. My point is, your post states “most men”, but what does “most men” mean when you take into account the multiple of races, ethnicities, cultures and traditions that span the world? What fits your perception of “taking care of yourself” may not be the same for many people.

I remember watching strange TV shows when young about the different perceptions of beauty in different cultures, usually enforced by the females in those cultures.  The most recent study I’ve seen on cross-cultural beauty standards was extremely offensive to women like you.  No matter the skin tone, religious affiliation of the region, and cultural and ethnic differences, it was astonishing to find that when (only) men were polled, it was almost as if they all picked the same standard kind of very stereotypical beauty across the board.  No matter the skin color, they *always* preferred and picked the lighter tones (within their respective ranges) as more beautiful and appealing, so lighter skin was considered much more desirable and beautiful, no matter ethnicity or culture.  They had the same findings regarding eye shape, lip shape, nose shape, etc.  It was shocking, even to me, to see how similar such drastically different men from all kinds of cultures around the world, found what was considered to be beautiful.  Symmetry was also super important, and is able to be measured physically (the distance between eyes, the narrowness or wideness of the nose, etc.) and it was always, in every scenario, preferred as more beautiful.  Women were offended because it was obvious men tend to choose what’s beautiful based on very predictable patterns, things we already knew anyway, but that society tries to fight against to get men to think everyone is naturally beautiful.  Scientifically, it’s just not true.

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Or maybe he just doesn’t like tattoos? LOL Why is that so hard to understand that a lot of men secretly feel this way?
The better question to me is, why the hell aren’t you allowing men to pick what kind of women they prefer?

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I’m not telling anyone that they shouldn’t have preferences, or what kind of woman they should be with. My point is mainly, “You don’t like it? Then zip it and move on.”

You’re telling them to, “shut up,” about their preferences.  That IS telling them they shouldn’t have preferences FYI.  You’re saying men should have no voice on those issues, or not be allowed to have opinions on them.  You also said previously that they aren’t being held accountable for their opinions (as if they should be punished or something).  This was also why women were so offended at that cross-cultural beauty study findings, they really had a problem that men tended to all prefer the same standard of beauty.  Men’s preferences are often offensive to women because it’s not, “nice,” to everyone or, “fair,” to the female-centric way of thinking.

The comments from those men were unprompted and unnecessary. They don’t need to comment on how the woman in the photo is trashy, or ruined. There’s no reason to be nasty about it. I reiterate, it’s fine if someone doesn’t like tattoos or other body modifications, but it doesn’t give the person a right to be a jerk about it.

They were commenting on an article online!  It’s not as if they were harassing her (actual mistreatment).  Their opinions weren’t even nasty, they weren’t commenting on her as a person, just her superficial beauty and how the tattoos affected it negatively in their minds.  That’s not a crime, and it’s not something you should silence them on.

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LOL you sound like a female Hitler! And how exactly do you plan on breaking men of their preferences?!? LOL Are you going to brainwash them into seeing beauty where they might not be able to physically? Why are you so controlling that you want to change the preferences of men you don’t even know? You’re allowed to have preferences, too, you know. What if some man was offended that you wanted a man who looked a certain way, and then he told you he needed to break your, “pattern,” of being attracted to a certain type? You’d think he was psychotic. Which is exactly how you’re coming across in this comment. It’s such a hilarious comment to me, I may make it into a separate post.

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Again, I’m not trying to control people or their preferences. Um… we just proved a few times, this is exactly what you’re doing here.  You even went so far as to say they should be silenced and have no voice.  And I also didn’t say we need to break the pattern of men’s preferences, Silenced and no voice allowed – that’s what you’re advocating for.  I’m saying we need to break the pattern of women being primarily valued for their appearance.

Look at Miss America, they finally got rid of the swimsuit segment, because I’m pretty sure qualifying for a college scholarship should not involve ‘who looks best in a bikini’.

Interesting you bring up the Miss America beauty pageant, because that ties into what this post is essentially claiming.  I don’t watch any beauty pageants, but I’m pretty sure from the photos I’ve seen online when they’re airing, that the women are instructed to cover any visible tattoos with heavy makeup.  Why do you think that is?  Maybe it’s because tattoos distract from the natural beauty of their skin and form?  It’s ironic you brought up a topic (beauty pageants) that proves the main point of my former article!

Of course we all have physical preferences. Whether or not someone possesses those qualities should not dictate how that person is treated. If a girl has a tattoo, she should not be treated as a slut, if she wears glasses she shouldn’t be called four eyes, etc… And this goes both ways, if a guy is super ripped, it shouldn’t be assumed he’s a ‘bro’, and if he’s smaller it doesn’t mean he’s less of a man.

Different treatment and mistreatment are different things.  Men simply treat women differently by expecting them to be more promiscuous (slutty) when they see a visible tattoo, but that’s not actual mistreatment (abuse, harassment, etc.).  They just approach them differently than a woman who looks more traditional. It’s the same with women who dress modestly versus immodestly.  I’ll explain more on the biological findings of how a male brain works in the next reply.

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There’s a lot of double standards that go the other way though, towards men being pigeon-holed into certain roles or positions. Double standards are something we live with every day, mostly due to the way the human mind and brain chemistry work (hormones). This is not something you can change, although I’m sure a lot of crazy feminist-types are trying to change the way men think (and naturally are supposed to think). Masculinity is now considered, “toxic,” as well as femininity. I think the tide will swing back though, it usually does.

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You’re missing the point of that whole movement. Masculinity and feminity are not toxic, it’s when people try to force their ideal version of those things onto others, and then chastise those who do not fit into that definition of masculine and feminine. Examples: men can’t cry, men shouldn’t wear pink, men should bury their pain, women should be modest, women should be seen not heard, etc… It’s what leads to a culture where men feel they can’t express themselves or do something ‘feminine’, and women feel intimidated to pursue STEM fields or something ‘masculine. We end up feeling this friction between not just the genders but everyone as human beings. And you’re confusing double standards that have been institutionally ingrained in our society with biological traits and preferences.

As a follow up, biology has shown that the human brain is not binary, and our hormones, thoughts, urges, etc… tend to exist on a spectrum and fluctuate due to environment, diet, age, and a multitude of other things.

Biologically, we’ve found through again, science, that when viewing the male brain when he’s watching a woman dressed immodestly, the parts of his brain that light up are the same that are lit up when he’s using tools.  That means seeing an immodestly dressed woman (not sure about tattoos) gets his brain literally thinking how to use her body, like a tool.  I’m sure you think that’s, “wrong,” but it’s simply the way testosterone affects the brain, and that process of differentiating into a male brain starts in utero, before the baby is even born. 

There was a lot of wisdom in the Bible’s teachings that women should dress modestly, and we know now that it helps men to focus on the woman as a person, her personality and character, rather than being distracted by immodesty that causes his brain to start seeing her as a sexual object.

And I find it worth mentioning again that the perception of beauty is often shaped by our culture and society of the time, because it has evolved A LOT over the centuries, and that’s just in the US, that doesn’t even take into account the 100s of other countries out their with their own cultural norms and standards.

Again, apparently you aren’t familiar yet with that study that covered cross-cultural preferences and found men everywhere, prefer pretty much the same standard of beauty.

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Again with the off the mark applications to what was written here. No one is saying a woman should put up with a man disrespecting her or mistreating her, you’re creating fabrications in your own mind. The simplicity is that yes, you will be judged by employers, parents of your spouse, family members, friends, enemies, coworkers, people in general for different things, and that’s not going to be preventable. If a woman wants to get a tattoo, (I do have one you know), she’ll need to know it reflects on her decision making, for better or worse, just like every other decision you make as an adult.

Employers are perfectly right to want to hire a person who doesn’t have facial tattoos for example. You may say they’re, “mean,” LOL but that’s totally their prerogative to pick and choose who they want to work for them. How you cannot understand this is hilarious to me. Just apply the employer’s choice, to a man’s choice in who he wants to bring home. Yes, many men won’t care anymore because this kind of rarity is not valued (by women mostly), that and men will take what they can get usually, which gets them into all kinds of problems later on when they find out what it means to marry someone who doesn’t make decision considering how it will affect their spouse. We’ve seen those kinds of marriage, they really suck (whether it’s a man or a woman acting without regard to what their spouse wants). Hopefully before you get married you learn that marriage is a partnership, and your decisions will always effect the other person, for better or worse.

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I’ll say it again, finding a significant other, and getting a job are two very different things, The point is that they’re both allowed to choose the person that will be in relationship with them, whether personal or professional. and corporate America is changing (see previous answers yes, previous answers where you cited a generation that is largely unemployable and unsuccessful in many facets that normally signify success). I’m not arguing what the rights of the hypothetical employers are No, you’re arguing that men should have no rights to voice their opinions on this, I’m saying their reasoning is likely bad if they’re fixated on a tattoo being the primary indication of a person’s qualifications, and I wouldn’t want to work for that company.

And yeah, choices have consequences, not arguing that either, I’m trying to get to the deeper issue though, why fixate on something so insignificant at all? We’re all aware of the stigma, so why not train our brain to recognize the pattern of judgement and listen to the person’s professional qualifications and experiences?

And I addressed this above, deciding what I do with my body is not the same as cutting my SO out of all my life decisions, or devaluing his needs and expectations. I agree it is a partnership between two individuals, where you love the person for their similarities and differences in opinions and beliefs. You shouldn’t expect the person to outright change themselves for you, or judge them for their quirks. I like tattoos, if my SO told me I couldn’t have one, then we’re not compatible, simple as that.
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I think you’re confusing what you’re responsible for, and what you *should* do if you want to attract a certain kind of man. No, of course you’re not, “responsible,” to live up to just any man’s expectations, that doesn’t make any sense, why would you do that? But if you want to attract a certain kind of man, it’s wise to figure out what would help you in that search. It’s also wise to pay attention to the science that tells us men, even when they dont’ want to, treat women with tattoos like they’re more promiscuous (slutty). Why would anyone want a man to automatically treat her like she was more slutty than the next woman? You can’t just reprogram the way the male mind works, this is natural for them, and it makes sense that the more society degrades into having no sexual morals, men will see women more and more as whores and sluts, and that’s what we created ourselves. And isn’t that how women are treated now more and more? Even though they don’t like it? You can’t fix this with more tattoos, we already have more females tattooed than ever, and it’s not going well.

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Actually, that ‘treating women more slutty’ thing is a learned behavior, not a biological one.

See previous answer where I referenced the brain imaging study where they found the male brain views a woman’s body that’s immodestly dressed, in the same way they would view tools to be used.  Tattoos haven’t been studied that way, yet, but since we’re talking about what constitutes being treated as, “slutty,” biologically it may have a lot to do also with the way the woman is dressing that causes this change in the male brain to perceive her as a sex object.  

The good thing is that women have complete control over this, they can choose to dress modestly so they aren’t perceived as promiscuous.  Which is what women have done for millennia, and what biblical wisdom already teaches women.

This goes back to certain perceptions being deeply ingrained in our society and culture; men learn from movies, tv, the internet, that women with tattoos and piercings are sluttier, when in fact, they’re just people. What’s the solution? Making sure boys are brought up to know women are not objects, regardless of appearance.

You truly believe this is a learned behavior, but I put forth it’s the result of the sexual differentiation made on the brain in utero when testosterone starts to literally change the structures of a male baby’s brain.  Men and women are biologically different.  Their brains are drastically different from the get-go, it’s already been proven it’s not really a learned behavior thing, but more of a nature (versus nurture) argument.  Can boys be feminized either through drugs or conditioning?  Unfortunately yes, but to me that’s child abuse.  They can also be groomed by pedophiles to be gay, doesn’t make it right or moral.

And because I know it’ll be brought up again, I’m not opposed to preferences, I am opposed to people being stereotyped and disrespected due to preconceived notions of a stereotype. And again there are matriarchal cultures all across the globe where it is taught from birth to respect women, and there is an overlap in those cultures where tattoos and/or piercings are considered sacred and important. Sexism is not a biological default; it has however become entrenched in our society.

Disrespect and mistreatment are not what’s really being talked about here.  Different treatment, yes, but men who approach women with the idea they’ll be more sexually open aren’t mistreating or disrespecting them (necessarily) every time.  Because immodest dress is proven to cause them to see a woman as a sex object (tool to be used) it does tend to influence how they behave with a woman who dresses like that.  But then the women who dress that way are usually wanting sexual attention, and they like men paying them that attention.  Just go to any bar or night club and casually observe how the women there dress, and especially how they behave with the opposite sex.  

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Again, I totally understand this, I wanted a tattoo and got one, too. Of course it doesn’t, “define,” me, but it *does* make a statement about me in some way – a way I very carefully chose in relation to the size and placement. It was very calculated on my part, and I’m very happy with making those decisions first before just going out and covering myself in ones I’d later regret. Tattoo-regret is a very real thing, I can’t believe I have to explain this to someone (sorry, not patient today LOL). There are MANY women (and men) who choose to get tattoos lasered OFF because once it’s on, they realize the way it makes others look at them, treat them subtly and guess what? They don’t like it one bit! Are you denying they have a right to change their decision and laser it off? Does that make them less of a smart person? It actually proves they are smart, because they’re reacting to things that are outside their control (the way other people treat them) by doing something WITHIN their control (lasering the tattoos off to make life more easy). They’ll make more money without them, their life will be more successful statistically.

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That’s great, I’m sure your tattoo looks awesome 🙂 I too put a lot of time and thought into my own, and am currently working on a sketch for another. Obviously tattoo regret is a thing, and that’s their personal choice to get it removed; I don’t think I ever mentioned that being an issue. I also don’t think I ever correlated someone’s intelligence with whether or not they kept their tattoo.

The point was that there are many men and women out there who once they do have tattoos, realize how it negatively impacts their life in a variety of ways, and make the choice to have it removed so they don’t have to deal with negative consequences.  Instead of childishly demanding people treat them better (like you’re claiming people should do), they’re taking the problem into their own hands (that they caused themselves) and dealing with what is within their control to better their life.  That is a smart decision, it’s not wise, however, to throw a tantrum and whine that people won’t hire you because you’re covered in tattoos and that they shouldn’t be so judgmental.

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And of course no one fits inside a neat little box, and no one is telling you to care about what these men think. It’s just an awareness post that describes how men think (and more importantly, how they subconsciously, without even realizing it, treat women with tattoos). That’s important info, even if you don’t like it. It’s info I want my daughter to be aware of, so she can make good, wise, rational decisions in what she does to her own body later on and understand what kind of consequences those decisions will have.

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It’s good for a child to know there are consequences to their actions. Also good for them to know they can stand up for themselves, and break social norms. They might not be popular for it, but nothing wrong with having a voice and bringing awareness to a topic.

Ironically, that’s exactly what we’re doing with our girl and our boys.  Being a Christian is no longer popular, and having beliefs like this aren’t going to be acceptable, more than likely, when they’re older.  You say there’s nothing wrong with having a voice and bringing awareness to a topic (LOL) and yet you’ve said these men should be silenced and have no voice about how women look with tattoos!  The irony is so thick!

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This post could have been titled, “Things I Want My Daughter to Know: Employers Don’t Hire People with Tattoos as Often as People w/o Them. It’s just a common sense thing that needs to be explained because it will determine how she’s treated and how her life goes. When you tell teens or young adults that people don’t care what they look like (which is exactly what you’re arguing here), you’re not helping them, in fact you’re harming them by lying to them about what life is really like. You can’t (and I’m sure you wouldn’t) tell you child they can act and dress however they like and society will just have to accept them. I’m sure (I hope I’m sure LOL) you’re rational enough to teach them social mores of what’s appropriate or not. Hopefully you’ll warn them that certain hair colors or piercings everywhere, or even certain behavior will get them treated differently than a more normal looking person. It’s ok if they want to do/act in certain ways (to an extent), but not everyone is going to accept them or agree with how they present themselves. A lot of times social mores were created to help people not be shunned or excluded. You can’t really change this, it ebbs and flows with whatever is acceptable at that certain point in time, and you can see the dramatic changes all throughout history.

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I actually think that would have been a better idea for the post. Of course people care what you look like, doesn’t make it right or justified in every circumstance. If I show up to work in sweatpants and not having showered for a week, I’d understand my boss’s concern. But in addition to telling your teen that they should probably not wear sweatpants to work, it’s important to tell them that while the boss has a right to not hire you or to enforce a dress code, they don’t have a right to disrespect you or talk down to you. There’s a distinct difference between the two. And I reiterate, corporate America is changing, I just did a company wide demonstration of my team’s work with all my purple hair, piercings and tattoos, and got props from my executive VP. It’s all about finding the right fit. And as you said, social norms have always fluctuated throughout history, and it looks like things are swinging towards tolerance and acceptance.

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You can follow your own advice on that, no one is stopping you for sure 🙂 . But I personally don’t have to support or agree with women who feel the way you do. I don’t think you are even truly aware of what you really think. You think you don’t dress up or wear makeup for other people… most women actually do. I mean… do you wear makeup even when you’re just going to be at home all day? Do you force yourself to put it on when you won’t be seeing anyone? Answering these questions for yourself will maybe help you see that you’re not being intelligently honest in this discussion. You just sound irrational, controlling (“ALL men MUST like tattoos!”) and kind of like a Female Hitler in the making. You want men to find tattoos attractive, but all men aren’t required to find the same thing attractive – this should be common sense. You can’t just take away a man’s preference because it hurts your feelings LOL. You can have your point of view, but certainly you can’t change the science in how men who even say (and may truly think) they like tattoos, still treat those women like they’re more slutty than women who don’t. They still make men see women as sexual objects to be used, even when those men don’t want to think like that. Maybe you just don’t believe in science, that would explain a lot actually.

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Again missing the point, I’m not bashing preferences, I’m bashing the shaming and nastiness towards women who choose to get these body modifications.

You literally said those men should be silent about their preferences, you called the men, “jerks,” for having preferences!  How is that not shaming toward men who don’t like tattoos?  You told them they shouldn’t be allowed to have a voice, that they should be held accountable for their, “wrong-think,” which yes, does sound Hitler-like in the totalitarian way of controlling people you disagree with and silencing them.

Also, I don’t wear makeup, almost ever, if I’m going to dinner with family, or to the symphony I might slap on some concealer, but yeah, I mainly stick to my jeans, hoodie, and just my face.

So you do admit to wearing makeup when the environment changes to something more formal, and people are expected to look more formal than casual.  Concealer makes a woman’s face look better, it hides dark circles and can erase blemishes, but women wear that not only for themselves, but also for others who will see them, because it makes their face appear better than without it.  The fact that you change your appearance for the better when the environment is more formal, means you’re doing this not only for yourself, but for the people who will be in the more formal environment.

And I never said all men must like tattoos, and if a person doesn’t like my tattoo, that doesn’t “hurt my feelings”, I’m pretty much like “ok *shrug*”. You seemed very offended that these men had opinions about someone in an article though.  So offended that you said they were, “nasty, shaming, jerks!”  You said they needed to be silenced and held accountable, that doesn’t sound like someone who lives and let lives to me. 

Now if a dude came up to me and said my tattoo ruined me in some way, or that I was slutty because of it, or that I was now worthless, I’d be like “why do you feel the need to tell me that?” Like, I don’t like lima beans, doesn’t mean I’m gonna go out on the interwebs and post on pics of lima beans, “Man lima beans are gross, and ugly” “They’re the worst” “I wouldn’t touch that” etc… You can have an opinion on whether or not your like something without being rude about it, or diminishing a person.

No man is going to come up to you and tell you insults like that more than likely.  And those men were not harassing that woman, but merely commenting on an article online about her appearance – that’s a BIG difference.  They were not mistreating her, shaming her, or insulting her personally, they were merely commenting on how the tattoos affected her appearance negatively.

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Hopefully, like I’ve said before, you’ll teach your daughter to be a rational human being who makes decisions not based on crazy emotions (like you’re doing), or trying to control the entire world’s population of men by bending them to her will (like you’re doing), and teach her that her value comes from God, but that she can do things to violate herself (abortion, murder, sins in general) that will affect the way she feels about her value negatively overtime. Hopefully you’ll give her the real sense of accomplishment and success in being a good, wonderful person who values herself and makes decisions based in wisdom, and not on simply emotions.

——

I mean, this is all hypothetical, I’m never having kids. I’m not being crazy or irrational, I feel like my tone has been pretty calm in response to everything. Your tone has been calm, almost hilariously when connected to what you’re saying.  It’s your arguments that are based on emotion, “they’re jerks!” and irrational.

And I’m not trying to control anyone? Really not sure where I said that everyone has to bend to my will. LOL again, you said those men should not be allowed to say those things about her appearance, even online.  You said they should be silent and have no voice or opinion on it.  You also have claimed several times that boys should be raised more to your liking, rather than what their testosterone already does to their brain structure.  All that sounds VERY controlling and nuts. 

Also I’m agnostic, so I’m sure you’re probably thinking at this point, “Good thing she’s not having kids,” and I agree, too much responsibility for my taste. And I’m actually logical to a fault at times, known in my family as a bit of a robot. Additionally, I’m not the one throwing ‘Hitler’ bombs in response to things I disagree with. But hey, if you think it’s wise to call people Hitler during a debate, that’s your prerogative.  I was being tongue and cheek, the leftist people use that all the time, but in your case, you really are trying to establish, “wrong-think,” and mentioned these men should be held accountable for their comments about her appearance, even though they haven’t committed ANY kind of crime, apparently to you, they’ve committed a, ‘thought-crime.”  Which yes, Hitler and other totalitarian regimes used those things to oppress people who had different opinions from them.  You’re literally copying how they established control and oppression over groups of people, by silencing those who disagreed with them, allowing them no voice, and holding them accountable as if they were committing crimes, for things like, “wrong-think.”  Being a mom of sons, women like you who are threatening men’s freedom of expression on even something as trivial as their preference, are annoying.

She rambles on repeating the same things for about 3 more paragraphs and then finally finishes with this:
——

I mean agree to disagree, I really just wanted to get my opinion out there, and share my personal experience.

How convenient there is no one here telling you to be silent, or that you should have no voice.  You’ve had your chance to explain your point of view, however, and I’m not going to be responding to anymore comments made by this same person.  Hopefully you go on to research more into the sexual differentiation of the male and female brain, and find some studies that are interesting that explain whey the sexes think and behave differently, based on biology.

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15 thoughts on “Rebuttal to Woman Trying to Silence Men’s Opinions of Standards of Beauty

  1. Thought provoking article!  I would interested to know if the men surveyed all have access to television, as it tends to plaster the same type of “beautiful woman” constantly and that could have influenced their responses.

  2. How would she feel if she had a husband who had a very physical job and decided not to go to work anymore because “It’s my body, after all!”??

    Or if he decided to stop bathing and using deodorants, for the same reason??

  3. Abbie says…….That’s not what I said, I said that my husband would not get to decide what I do with my body, and vise versa. My getting a tattoo does not affect him, nor does dying my hair purple, or getting a 15th piercing.

    Sorry, all those things do affect him in lots of different ways. If she dyes her hair purple does he really want to be seen out in public with her? If she gets another tattoo does his money contribute to something if he against it. This is the logic people who never want to be accept responsibility use. You may be able to do whatever you wish with your body, but there will always be consequences, whether one likes it or not.

  4. Pingback: The notebook of the week – Dark Brightness

  5. Regarding tattoos and piercings, a couple of thoughts occur to me. First of all, I’m under the impression that not only does the artist see where he’s (she’s) putting the tat, but also must handle that area to make sure the pen/needle goes in at the right place–pull the skin a bit tight, etc.. All the more for a piercing. So when one sees certain tats and piercings, thought #1 is “she (he) was willing to have a relative stranger handle that part of her (his) body for a prolonged period of time.” That would be one reason why many people treat those with lots of tattoos, especially on the torso, as “loose” or “easy”.

    Thought #2 is that there is a certain reaction when someone is “trying too hard”, be it with clothing, fancy car, tattoos, makeup, whatever. You wonder automatically what deficiency they might have, and the respect level goes down. “She’s crazy enough to be fun for an evening, but she’s not meeting my mom” and all that.

    A final thought; be careful about arguing at extreme length. There is a certain point where going point by point in response is harmful, because the real issue is something else. Blessings!

  6. “A final thought; be careful about arguing at extreme length. There is a certain point where going point by point in response is harmful, because the real issue is something else. Blessings!”

    Thank you, Bike Bubba, at least you seem to understand! She actually tried to comment two more times, the first being another lengthy (and repetitive) response where she wanted me to imagine our sons would be sexual predators in high school! I’m not even going to acknowledge someone that offensive, let alone let their comments through.

    Then she posted again, angry that I, “silenced,” her! LOL… I gave her pages and pages of being published with her reasoning on my own website, and yet she thinks she’s, “#Silenced.” Just unbelievable and SO ungrateful!

    I’m also just way too busy to argue that much with someone like that. She may enjoy it, but I have 3 kids, am teaching all morning and part of the afternoon, am pregnant with #4, and then running a household. Thursday morning we went on our weekly outing 😀 , then at night when I got her angry demands to let her comments through, I was too busy writing a 4 page comprehensive science test for the next morning! Just WAY too busy for that kind of drama.

  7. Hi Stephanie,

    I think her point with being “#Silenced” is not that you didn’t respond, but that you deleted her comment- therefore silencing her thoughts and stopping others from considering or thinking about them. If you had simply left it and not paid attention or responded, I don’t think she would have gotten upset or would have left that second comment.

  8. No one has the right to just continuously argue on another person’s blog. I’ve actually paid for this website, so I control who can comment or not (even if it’s free, you still have that control as a blog author). Most normal, reasonably well-balanced people, don’t get upset at not getting to argue for weeks on some internet blog. Clearly she took it way too seriously, perhaps online interactions make her feel necessary? But demanding someone host your week-plus of arguments is incredibly immature, and apparently, she really has nothing better to do.

    Fortunately, I have a full life, I understand she’s probably really lonely (no husband or SO to love her, no kids… hopefully she has pets), but she can’t just demand I host her nonsense. It’s hilarious though, in a sad, pathetic kind of way. Develop hobbies, go out and make real-person interaction. It’s weird how social interactions online make people look autistic. If she tried to follow someone around for days, arguing her points, they’d have her arrested eventually for not taking a hint… but apparently continuously arguing on another person’s blog (and getting mad when someone shuts them down after they’ve heard enough nonsense) is her, “normal.”

    She should be grateful I allowed her so much of my time. Unfortunately, she’s not that nice or self-aware about how much she was intruding into our already busy lives.

  9. I feel like there is a distinct psychology to people mortifying their bodies (and I do not mean disciplined, religious mortification, like fasting). To me, a woman who has covered her flesh with tattoos or has piercings everywhere is not all that different than people who cut themselves repeatedly. When a woman looks in the mirror and sees spikes through her lips, does she honestly think she looks beautiful? I doubt it. Does the pain and anticipation of rejection do something for her? Probably. This may also be why you have someone who is actively seeking out your disapproval. We live in a culture that fetishizes suffering – where it is a form of entertainment to imagine oneself being a victim or oppressed. It’s not that standards of beauty are changing at all, so much as social media enables this collective mental illness.

    When a traditional employer sees those things, they see someone who will likely be a bad employee in many respects. Someone who will be a source of drama and potentially trouble. Someone who probably won’t value their work or work products because they don’t even value their own body or care about what it says about them. Someone who will alienate clients. Ditto with potential mates. Will someone who likes to mortify their body make a gentle and caring mother? Will they be a source of emotional stability for young children? Will they help manage a household responsibly? How you carry yourself communicates a lot of things about how you live and what you value.

  10. Great points, Saucysandpiper.

    “It’s not that standards of beauty are changing at all, so much as social media enables this collective mental illness.”

    It is strange how much the media, etc. tries to make us think the standards are changing, but when they really looked into it, across cultures, it’s not and actually hasn’t much.

    Like the Bible says, there’s nothing new under the sun. People have always been mutilating themselves in different ways (piercings, tattoos, giant ear-holes forced to expand) and even in ancient times it was largely considered taboo and forbidden. Cannibal tribes are well-known for doing a lot of self-mutilation (giant ear holes, giant pieces of wood through noses, etc.), I think it can almost be a demonic-influence phenomenon to cause so much self-pain.

  11. Have a house full of boys right now (friends over), but I feel like I should add about the being, #Silenced (that is such a funny hashtag)… she’s abusing that word. To really be silenced in that way, where your thoughts aren’t allowed to be expressed, is if something with much much more power than I shut her whole blog down. Which WordPress *has* done, many times, to many people on the right. That’s being effectively silenced, not when someone’s had enough of tiresome arguments (and allowed pages and pages of some lady to speak her, “thoughts.”

    No, she was not silenced at all, she had her chance to make valid arguments and plenty of points. She has the freedom to go and create her own blog, if WordPress shuts it down, then she has a right to complain, but not on someone else’s blog, on someone else’s time.

  12. Thanks, gracious hostess. I’ve been in a time or two when someone wanted me to respond line by line to their argument, and it never helped when I tried. I haven’t always figured out what the real issue is, but when I start to realize that the argument is a caricature of what I’ve actually said, I have learned to disengage. Sometimes I try and explain why, and other times, I just get a hunch it’s a waste of time.

  13. Moral of this thread: Don’t mess with a pregnant woman.😉

    When I was new to the adult work force, I was “schooled” by a newly-minted PhD gal that was maybe ten years older than I. I had said you look nice today – either to her or she overheard me say it to someone else (don’t remember). She informed me that, if I were going to compliment a lady, I should always say “you look particularly nice today; otherwise, she will think that you think she doesn’t look nice most of the time.”

    I disagreed with her logic (to myself), but I also understood that guys and gals think differently about a lot of things. So, assuming she had a point, I’ve tried to say it that way ever since.

    Some years ago, I worked fairly closely with another manager in the department. We were about the same age. From time to time I would greet her by saying you look particularly nice today. One day she “schooled” me in about the same manner as the earlier gal had. You know – the only time you say that to me is when I am wearing makeup. My internal response to that was well, duh! Didn’t say that to her though. She had one of those faces that was quite lovely all by itself, so she did not often wear makeup. She didn’t need to. But this particular exchange had taken place when she was about six months pregnant. It was obvious to me that, as her stomach protruded out farther over time, she began to wear makeup more frequently, perhaps to compensate for how her extend stomach made her feel.

    So – yeah, makeup invites men to look more closely. Maybe even respond to the make-up wearer. And – Don’t mess with a pregnant woman.😉

  14. @bike bubba for me it’s just a waste of time. I’m opening to hearing opposition, and in my mind, she had pages to make her point, that’s pretty generous. She was also posting it to Facebook for all her friends to laugh at how ridiculous my views are. It was fun for her. I’m not open to devoting or opening my blog for another person’s relentless arguments. Making a point (or several) is fine, demanding she have unmoderated license on my blog, no.

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