The Nice Guy Wants to Be Your Partner, Not a Leader

I stumbled upon this post (below) over at a forum I used to comment at frequently back in 2008 (a year into my marriage when I thought I could magically fix everyone’s marriage problems), called enotalone.  Back then it was a smallish community of regular commenters and we would try to help any new people who came there with friend issues, family issues, sex issues, or marriage problems.  I loved reading everyone’s personal situations, maybe its the nosy yenta in me, however, I loved being able to analyze a difficult situation and try to find (or listen to) the best advice for that person’s particular situation.

Not everyone seeking answers were ready to hear what we had to say about their predicament.  Much like in therapy, you cannot just disclose everything you see wrong immediately to a person or they’ll shut it out in self defense, and nothing good will come of their experience with you, or from your advice.  You have to slowly help them to see the real problem; you really have to help them come to terms with it themselves first.

What I found striking about this particular post (from May 2014)  is how honest this self-proclaimed (and proud?) beta-male is about his desire to be a partner, not a leader, in a relationship with a wife.

I emphasized the phrases that are particularly important to his particular situation, and want to go through each one to dissect exactly what is going on here in his life at that moment in time.  But first, his plea for help:

***

Hey everyone

I’m trying for some introspection here – before I start just let me say that I’m not looking for this thread for nice guys to complain about how they finish last.

So hey there….I’m a nice guy and I finish last 😛

I’m on the heels of another breakup (long time coming) and just trying to…. get some perspective on my place in the dating world

For any of you who have taken any interest in the Mayer/Briggs personality test, I’m an ISFJ – for the uninitiated, that’s a uber-responsible softie with some other annoying attributes – I was fascinated when I took the test, as it nailed me to probably 90% (I’m an ISFJ that will actually communicate with you and a few other discrepancies)

So my ex and I made the call to separate a few weeks back. There were numerous reasons for this, many boiling down to simple incompatibility:

She’s very high energy and an extremely outspoken and self proclaimed Alpha female whereas I’m a softer spoken artsy type

We didn’t have anything in common that we enjoyed doing together and conversation was really really hard. I found her overwhelming and she found me reeeaaally boring ( I’ve never had that with anyone before)- this one was the main factor as we just didn’t have fun together

Her opinions are hard and fast whereas I’m more….tender I guess towards other peoples opinions and perspectives

We recognized these and our other differences early on and thought we’d be able to make it based on the other attributes we liked about one another. Over time I found her very critical and overwhelming and I would more and more often become anxious and stressed – in all honesty I should have had better boundaries and left ages ago

Fort the last two years we were embroiled in a crazy roller coaster ride with her teenage daughter, when the fog lifted and we had some time to really re-examine us as a couple we wondered what there really was when you take the family (she has 5 kids) responsibilities out of it. In typical ISFJ fashion I threw myself into family responsibilities for the last 3.5 years of our partnership.

Over time, while she appreciated my gentle, giving nature she really found that she wanted more of an Alpha male, more of a challenge, more of a ballbuster (I don’t know how to be a challenge with the huge demands of the family). I understand her wants, but feel they would make more sense were it to just be the two of us, or with a few less kids – it was exhausting.

So much of the literature around this sort of thing will say, be a challenge to your girlfriend, to your wife, always leave her wanting, give her two signs of affection for her every three….that sort of thing.

I’m just like my dad…I’m not a alpha male,

I’m the typical ISFJ guy who will make sure everything runs smoothly, show my love, support you and give you my last quarter cup of Starbucks if you finish yours, you an trust me with your life and your heart.

So….I think I’m just trying to process, my ex has said before to me “you get so lost in us” (meaning the family) and I definitely did, for a long time I was leaving work 2-3 times a day to check on her daughter, we’ve done eating disorder, self harm, suicide ideation, tons of police visits…. I could go on, it’s been a rocky ride, stressful ride. I always say my dedication and support for all her kids and her to be where my strength lay as a “strong male”, while not aggressive and outspoken I was there for all the stuff her and the kids needed, many hospital visits and drunken teen escapades. It felt like a bit of a catch-22 as she’d tell me not to get lost in everything, but she was very demanding (also self proclaimed) and the needs of the family were very high so I didn’t really know how to NOT get lost in everything.

I’m rambling, I guess where I’m at is I’m not sure how to take this (there’s a ton more details, maybe some of you remember some of my posts back in January) but I’m not sure if I went wrong picking someone extremely incompatible with me? Maybe I should have held out for a sweet gentle librarian or am I too “Beta” and gentle which is a turn-off?

If I am too beta and gentle, I don’t really know how to up my game in that regard without compromising who I am (which is a gentle beta-artist by the looks of it)

I was forward with my needs and frustrations with her, but they always got shut down fairly quickly, so as time went on, I voiced my needs less and less. This was a point of frustration for her, but when I explained that it seemed pointless to do so because she’d just shut me down….she would shut that down too……

Is there a place for Beta guys? (as we are called), some people would say “nice guy” but I find that that moniker also includes, possessiveness, passive-aggressiveness and shut off emotions (none of which are me)

I get why women would go for the confidence of the Alpha male, but dang….I’m just not at this point in my life and never have been, I was a quiet baby, quiet kid, etc, I’m just a more peaceful kind of person who would rather be a partner than a leader in a relationship.

Or maybe I was just with the wrong person way too long, trying too hard to fit a square peg in a round hole, I don’t know.

Any thoughts on my rambling mess?

Thanks”

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

First, there is nothing wrong with being a quiet, introverted, or “gentle” male, these qualities do not necessarily have to mean that a guy is feminine (emasculated) as well.  Alpha and beta are much more complicated that what most people seem to try to confine their definitions into.  The best and most simplistic manner I can possibly attribute to what is “beta” is an attitude of deference or subservience to a woman’s opinions, her needs, or her desires.  A kind of lack of confident authority or capable masculinity in a man.  Being too dependent on her happiness for his own happiness… allowing her to run and rule the family while he takes a back seat as a pseudo-equal partner, or because she leads better “makes better decisions.”

I give this guy a lot of credit for being honest and self-aware enough to admit that he actually doesn’t want to be a leader… most men who have been groomed into this kind of equality-type marriage adamantly assert that there shouldn’t be a leader (that somehow they both manage to lead and no one follows – yea, right) because they are both equal partners in the marriage.  Society has purposefully created these “beta” males, destining them for unhappiness as they strive for niceness and peacefulness, to be partners instead of leaders in their marriages.  However, no one endures the pain and frustration throughout life like the beta male does.  Let’s take a look at the emphasized sentences a little closer:

1) “as a couple we wondered what there really was when you take the family (she has 5 kids) responsibilities out of it. In typical ISFJ fashion I threw myself into family responsibilities for the last 3.5 years of our partnership.
Over time, while she appreciated my gentle, giving nature she really found that she wanted more of an Alpha male”

He doesn’t give their ages, but a single man who has taken on a woman with 5 children is only a plight a beta male would put himself through… the self-sacrificing, self-effacing giver who prefers to “do the right thing” for someone else, but never for himself (or always puts himself and his needs last).  Forever seeking to be the hero in order to mask their lack of real authority or tangible masculinity in their relationships, in classic white knight or beta fashion, he “threw” himself into family responsibilities for the last 3.5 years of his “partnership.”  Men who have been brainwashed by society to be “beta” believe that the crucible of true masculinity is in how much he can give, how much he can bleed for his partner and children, how many of his needs he can sacrifice, no matter how unappreciative or nonreciprocal his wife (ironically and supposedly his “equal” partner) is.  The problem is that women typically do not appreciate all that the self-sacrificing beta male does, she becomes accustomed to taking advantage of all the “sacrifice” he gives without having to pay anything herself for it, women will use this kind of man (for his goods and services) for a long time, but he will never win her respect and thus will never capture her raw desire.

2) I’m just like my dad…I’m not a alpha male,

This makes me so sad.  I think very few men had a good example of a father-figure in their life who exhibited what God truly intended for a man to be while growing up.  Most fathers are likely too passive, allowing the wife to be the true leader, while he is simply a figure head, pseudo-leader of the family to outsiders… behind closed doors, she is the one who leads.  When children (especially boys) grow up in this kind of family environment, they hear all these mixed messages (in church) about men being the spiritual head or leader of the family, and yet they watch day to day reactions where their father submits, defers, and is subservient to their mother who essentially runs their Matriarchal family.

This thus creates men who grew up with beta fathers, who in turn will produce more beta boys.

Boys desperately DESPERATELY need fathers who are strong, masculine, capable and confident in their God-given position to LEAD their family.

3)  I always say my dedication and support for all her kids and her to be where my strength lay as a “strong male”, while not aggressive and outspoken I was there for all the stuff her and the kids needed, many hospital visits and drunken teen escapades.

This again, depicts what is the crucible to a beta male of what represents true strength or masculinity – his ability to support her and her kids, to be there for her and for them.  He sacrificed his own time and energy in this relationship (that was not even a marriage, and to kids who are not even his own), thinking it was the epitome of being the “strong male” that she’d eventually desire.  He rationalizes that (based upon all his love and dedication and sacrifice), he is her hero and should be (at the very least) appreciated as such.  But do beta males ever get appreciated for all that they are willing to do for a woman (and her 5 children)?  No….  Their reward (this is harsh but so true) is a very unfulfilled or nonexistent sex life, or her cheating on him with an alpha-type male (more common than you’d think), or her using him for years for resources, money, housing, or emotional support, or parenting her fatherless children (as in this case) only to leave him after the fact because she’s finally realized she desires someone more alpha.

Women like this know they desire someone more alpha, but they are not against using a beta male for as long as he allows himself to be used.

4) If I am too beta and gentle, I don’t really know how to up my game in that regard without compromising who I am (which is a gentle beta-artist by the looks of it)

This is a common problem with men who have a skewed view of alpha vs. beta.  There is no one cookie cutter creation for what makes an alpha.  Every man is different, and it is a journey a man has to travel on his own, with God, to find his own identity.  It is probably the most difficult life journey any man has to undertake in order to realize his full potential to be what & who God intended him to be.

But believing that becoming “alpha” will somehow compromise his true “beta” self, he is undermining any advancement in personal growth, healthy boundaries, or even spiritual growth as he forgoes learning to acquire real strength and develop authentic masculinity.  A healthy, strong, masculine man does not allow a woman to use him in such a manner.  Such a parasitic relationship is not what God intended for him to “endure” in order to achieve a kind of “holy” sainthood for his sacrifice and dedication.  Having strong boundaries, a strong sense of self-respect and healthy pride in himself, a confident assertiveness, and a clear mind that can see a situation for what it is and be able to avoid a woman’s petty manipulations – these are all qualities of a healthy “alpha” male.  He does not need to change his innate gentleness or kindness, he just has to make sure he isn’t ruled by these qualities.  He doesn’t have to become some kind of “ball-busting” asshole like he says she would prefer.  While many criminals, sociopaths, and yes, assholes would be classified in the alpha category (and have the women to prove it), they are only alphas because they exhibit these traits (or take them to unhealthy extremes), not solely because of their anti-social behaviors.

5) I was forward with my needs and frustrations with her, but they always got shut down fairly quickly

Another failure of the beta male, is to be “forward” with a woman on what he needs or wants from her, to try to explain or break-down logically how a reciprocal relationship should work.

Women (like any human with a conscience) understand how reciprocity works, it is simply that they feel they don’t have to abide by those particular rules when it comes to nice beta men.  A woman who picks a beta man is not picking him in order to fulfill his deepest desires and fantasies, she is picking him for what HE can do for HER.  It is Emma Watson’s HE FOR SHE in real life played out day-to-day.  HE has to cater to HER, HE has to be there for HER, HE has to put up (or shut up) for HER… and so-on and so-on it goes.  When or if he starts to feel like it is a little one-sided and tries to explain to her about reciprocity, she plays dumb, doesn’t “get it,” and as in his own example he gets “shut down fairly quickly.”

She just doesn’t want to hear that he has needs, too.  It’s HE for SHE remember?

6) Is there a place for Beta guys?

There is “a place,” however it is not a place he wants to be, because being beta is never going to be fulfilling for a man, he will always feel a tug that something isn’t right, that his true self is somehow being repressed or even oppressed by everything and everyone in society.  He will always feel (unless it is extremely repressed) that he is somehow falling short, failing to be a true man.

There are many men who have found their place and lived the life as a beta man, husband, and father… and they often also find themselves waking up to a woman who doesn’t desire them in that raw sexual way, or who tells them she has never loved them to begin with, or who constantly disrespects him or undermines him in their marriage.  Again, it is simply not a place he wants to be in.

7) I’m just a more peaceful kind of person who would rather be a partner than a leader in a relationship.

Possibly the most wonderful example of true masculinity depicted in literature is that of Jesus Christ.  His unswerving strength, His confidence and capability, His boldness and courage, His assertiveness and toughness – all these masculine qualities were matched with calculated compassion, gentleness, love for children, joy, peacefulness, understanding.  He was not an asshole, nor was he a blubbering emo.  He was not merely a dutiful, quiet beta – He had much too much gumption and gall in fighting with the Pharisees than to be a compliant “peace at all costs” beta.

He stood up for what was Truth, always exhibiting what was the opposite of cowardice.

Which, when you really look at it, a beta male is afraid… afraid of his own masculinity.  Society tells him its too dangerous, undesirable, or even wrong.

But men, nothing could be further from the Truth.

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97 thoughts on “The Nice Guy Wants to Be Your Partner, Not a Leader

  1. “But believing that becoming “alpha” will somehow compromise his true “beta” self, he is undermining any advancement in personal growth, healthy boundaries, or even spiritual growth as he forgoes learning to acquire real strength and develop authentic masculinity. ”

    That’s a major obstacle in many people’s lives, I think. Culture changes their upbringing and leaves a harmful mark. They don’t see it – they internalize it and even defend it. It’s not always easy to see what’s really you, and what is just self-destructive learning. This man would probably still be introverted if he shook off his harmful learning, but introverted need not mean a doormat.

  2. I had wondered if you would blog about “alpha” guys after our little discussion on Dalrock’s blog the other day. And I have to say – this post of yours is very enlightening as to your perspective on the matter.
    Am I right in saying then that you believe an alpha male is the true form of godly masculinity?
    This would explain why you felt that I was insulting my husband by saying he was “not alpha”.
    My understanding of the terms “alpha” and “beta” could be way off (I have spent a lot less time in the ‘sphere than you), but I always thought that alphas were confident leader types, always getting lots of girls and also kind of arrogant. And that betas were the “nice guys”, not wanting to get anyone offside and generally more supplicating. …to be overly simplistic.
    And when I thought of those definitions, I didn’t see my husband fit neatly into either! He has moments of both…

    Thoughts?
    (And if you feel this is off topic for your post, please delete 🙂 )

  3. Jeez, I’m always amazed that guys like this just never learn. I learned long ago that in any group – even as small as two here has to be a leader, and I tend to fill that role. I learned that long ago, I would be at a camp and see people milling around till I would get sick of it, and tell people what to do, those that resisted I would tell them, “I have no use for you, get lost” and keep going. Eventually they would come asking for something to do. Women do not want “partners” no matter what non-sense they spew – they want a leader, someone that they can go to who will be a rock. That is why so many women are unhappy – men listen to the drivel women say, rather than looking at the actions they reward.

    If I could drive one lesson to men, it would be, look at the actions women reward, and what they punish and act accordingly. You will be happier as a man, and she will be much much happier as a woman. That’s why I’m a fossil – yet I never have too far to look for female companionship. Why? Women like fossils – we do no change, and we are as we are, and as we have always been. Women may say many things, but they reward men that exude power, drive, and ability.

  4. I do not believe that 80 percent of the male population is afflicted with this “condition” (helpless physical and emotional subservience to the dominating female person). If that were true, the course of human history would look a lot different. Most likely, the human race would have actually died out long ago. Certainly cultures that emulated this model would have been culled.

  5. Right… but doesn’t it seem like there are a lot more? I know you’re not really religious right, Liz? Maybe you haven’t seen what the typical pastor has managed to do to Christian men. In Christian circles, the nice guy beta syndrome is quite the norm… and he has a very hard time finding anyone (even in church) to date or have a lasting relationship with.

    Most churches do not teach that the husband should be the leader or head of the family. Most teach this new phenomenon that Dalrock talks about frequently called Servant Leadership. The husband is really subservient to his wife and “leads” through trying to manage her happiness. So… her “happiness” (not holiness or for her spiritual growth) is what determines how or what he leads his family into. Its very strange. We’re lucky that our church isn’t really all about that, it leans more towards the biblical teaching of husbands leading their family with authority.

  6. I don’t want to be unkind, and hope this person isn’t reading this but this guy really needs a testoterone patch. Even he seems to understan he needs a testosterone patch. I can’t even begin to explain what is wrong, it’s like reinventing the wheel. It isn’t biologically natural for a woman to lead her mate in everything. If a self-described “gentle” male person marries that sort of female the relationship is going to be ipso facto exploitive. Dominating women typically are attracted to men who are MORE dominating even than they. If they aren’t paired up with men who don’t take their shyte, they will become even more manly and dominant.

  7. I always thought that dominating women really WERE more attracted to someone they could control (or maybe it was that they could only find a man like that who would put up with their bossiness for that long I don’t know). She’ll never DESIRE a man like this, but dominant woman often really do pick submissive men.

  8. “Women do not want “partners” no matter what non-sense they spew – they want a leader, someone that they can go to who will be a rock. That is why so many women are unhappy – men listen to the drivel women say, rather than looking at the actions they reward. ”

    You really have something here.

  9. “Most churches do not teach that the husband should be the leader or head of the family. Most teach this new phenomenon that Dalrock talks about frequently called Servant Leadership. The husband is really subservient to his wife and “leads” through trying to manage her happiness. So… her “happiness” (not holiness or for her spiritual growth) is what determines how or what he leads his family into. Its very strange.”

    Sorry, we posted at the same time. Yes, that is really strange (and terrible). I watched a Christian movie recently that received a lot of stars on Netflix, and it was about a highschool kid on the basketball team, so I thought it might be a good movie for our boys. It was called ‘New Hope’. I watched it first and I’m glad I did because the main character, though certainly ‘spotless’ in character was not a person to emulate, neither realistically nor feasibly. If a guy actually acted like that his mate would not find him desireable at all, and he would not go far in life either.

  10. Right… it’s very hard to go far in life when you constantly put other people’s needs, wants, and happiness above your own.

    A man will never fulfill his own purpose and full potential that way. If you follow back the link to the original post, you’ll see quite a few male commenters tell him that being beta has hindered them in EVERY aspect of their life.

  11. “I always thought that dominating women really WERE more attracted to someone they could control (or maybe it was that they could only find a man like that who would put up with their bossiness for that long I don’t know). She’ll never DESIRE a man like this, but dominant woman often really do pick submissive men.”

    They aren’t attracted to them at all, but they do often pick them because they are exploitable (case in point, the woman here has 5 children already). Women become dominant for different reasons. Some just are naturally dominant and competitive, others become so if they have to (this might happen if, for example they are single for a long time, if they are a single mother, or if they are married to a submissive partner). My ex boyfriend would say that I was a very very dominant and overbearing personality, for instance, and he was “just nice to me”. But neither is true.

  12. Is there a place for Beta men?

    Yes. As the head of their *own* family. Egads, single men should never get involved with women with children. That is for divorced dads to do if they want to remarry.

    You stating that you want a partner is simply saying you are way in over your head and way out of place here. It isn’t your responsibility to be the leader of this brood. The children’s father is.

    Wanting a partner is your way of saying you want a normal relationship where it is just the two of you before you start your own family. This is very natural and right. You start with more of a partnership and then you take the leadership helm as the two of you begin to have children.

    You cannot have natural feelings in an unnatural relationship. I’m not going to say kudos for all you did for her and her kids. I think it was a mistake for everyone to step into a role that wasn’t yours. I’m going to say thank goodness that she agreed to put an end to it so that you are free to have your own life.

    Do not date a woman with children again. Don’t get into a bed that someone else has already made.

  13. “You start with more of a partnership and then you take the leadership helm as the two of you begin to have children.”

    I disagree… I think most women, children or not, really desire a man who is able to lead.

  14. I’ll share further about my ex.
    I’ve noticed often when I bring this up some male posters become annoyed with me but I think it’s pretty illustrative. Certainly my relationship with my husband is very good by pretty much every standard and my relationship with my ex boyfriend terrible by just about every standard (except friendship, we could be described as very good friends…at least until we weren’t).
    We seemed to have a lot in common and shared interests (politically we were both liberal at the time). He was very respectful. In fact, he spent a great deal of time telling he how much he respected me even when it was very situationally inappropriate. (also “please be gentle with me” commentary and so forth). I found I was not attracted to him anymore at all, and tried to break up with him and then he started begging and groveling. I thought I was being kind continuing the relationship. I’m a loyal person so I would never cheat on anyone, even a person I couldn’t have sex with and was physically repulsed by.
    Eventually, I did break up with him for good though.
    He had no father figure in his life (raised by his grandmother only), he was a deacon in the church, and turned out (unsurprisingly) to be a homosexual.

  15. DragonFly: Right… it’s very hard to go far in life when you constantly put other people’s needs, wants, and happiness above your own.

    Great article DragonFly. Your comment above reminds me (again) of Matt 22:34-40, which says in part, “Love your neighbour as you love yourself”. I am to love both myself and others, not only others.

    Thanks for taking the time to fight the foolish attitudes you see around you.

  16. ““Love your neighbour as you love yourself”. I am to love both myself and others, not only others.”

    Right… and you can’t really love others if you DON’T love yourself… you can’t give what you don’t have -kind of ideology is true.

  17. For this particular man, I think “partnership” in the future is important because he did not appear to get anything out of this relationship. It was all one-sided. He gave a lot and got little to nothing back.

    I don’t disagree that women, children or not, like a man who is a leader, but I think he needs to avoid being a martyr and not taking on more than is his responsibility to take on. For that, he does need someone who is more of an equal. Someone who has her own life together as, one assumes, does he.

    When that pairing is established, then it will be far easier and enjoyable for him to take on the leadership role, especially if she encourages it. I don’t believe that all men are just magically leaders. It’s a process, and, in my opinion, his path to that is to start with a woman who is on more equal footing.

  18. Per religion, Dragonflygirl, to respond fully to your question would require a lot of time and many personal life details, but I would like to respond briefly.

    I am a Christian, raised by atheist parents. I started going to church at around 6 years old. I walked there by myself every Sunday until I was old enough to drive (it was only a couple of blocks away). I can’t remember why I started going but I also don’t remember any time that I didn’t believe in God…I can remember even back to being an infant in a crib but I still can’t remember that, I “talked to God” before I could read. I’ve had many life circumstances that have been affirmational for me.

    I don’t debate religion, and I seldom will discuss it. I have not had very good life experiences with people who discuss religion a lot. I’ve found that people in life who have attempted to outright cheat and swindle me have been the most self-described ‘devoutly religious’ and speak about Christ the most.

    I’ve had a very hard time finding a church home with all the frequent moves through the years, the last good one was in South Carolina many moves ago. We’ve had a lot of bad experiences and my childhood church was Missouri synod Lutheran, very traditional and none of the ‘new age’ stuff that I can’t seem to get away from when I’ve attempted to find a church, so it has been a while since we’ve tried again (over two years now). I mean, REALLY bad experiences. The last church we tried (recommended by people we know) had a Harry Potter/Lord of the Rings and so forth book burning bonfire, a church before that one was an actual cult (also recommended). We’ve simply tired of these experiences.

    So to answer…am I particularly religious? No. But I am a Christian and have had a great, great number of religiously affirmational experiences. Most of them have been outside of church however.

  19. I wish it was that simple. Women will flip on you for being unchanging as well. Too secure, too boring for them. Women have a duality and are duplicitous. They will attack you from either side if either is vulnerable.

  20. Dragonfly,

    Let’s take the focus off the man and place it on the woman. What alpha would have this woman? Alpha sows like this get submissive men because that is all they can pull in. Then they dominate and complain.

    This woman deserves no man. She should be happy with whatever help she can get. Yet she is not. I suppose I can admire her chutzpah in continuing to demand more out of men. That’s about it.

    The man in this story never should have taken up with this woman in the first place. That is the only lesson to be learned.

    Women are to submit. A man will naturally be more alpha to a woman who submits to all men. Women are to submit. Not compare one man to another and demand more alpha. If a woman does not submit she is in sin, full stop. Women blaming men for their own rebellion and sinfulness is wrong.

  21. I think you are essentially correct (this woman deserves no man, and has probably been through a few of them), but this is a false dichotomy.
    The poster in question here is asking for advice and has actually “been here before” by his own admission. He has been completely duped by emasculating, modern social conditioning.

  22. Just to add,
    I don’t even see where the poster in question has mentioned Gospel so I’m not sure where “sinfulness” would fit in here. This is all limbic response. We could wish that people were made differently and women would respond submissively to demands that they become submissive to a spouse, but I dont’ think that limbic response will really kick in by mere proselytization.

  23. That’s interesting, Liz… I do think it might be near impossible for a woman to wholeheartedly submit to a husband who is refusing to lead or fill that God-given role. She can’t submit to someone who isn’t leading, or who believes he leads badly… so naturally she ends up being the default “leader” in the couple and even a sweet woman does not like this arrangement usually. A sweeter woman probably would be easier to work with though for him, and would be able to somewhat help him on his journey giving him more confidence (but not fully – that’s a man’s, or God’s, job). But even a sweeter woman would not appreciate his beta-ness as being attractive in any way… in fact, because when a man behaves more “beta” a woman actually becomes repulsed by him. She would more than likely lose that intimate bond with him overtime because of feeling repulsed, lose respect for him, and constantly be feeling like he wasn’t fulfilling his role – which he could eventually pick up on and become even more depressed about.

    It’s like with negotiated desire… and that comes into play here, too. How could she desire him if she is being repulsed by his emasculated behavior? So then she’ll try to negotiate her desire for him… which apparently doesn’t work very well or for very long.

    The sinfulness that Striver is probably talking about comes on the side of a woman being that emasculating towards any man in her relationship.

  24. I agree, it’d be interesting to see if all the kids came from the same father (I really don’t think so). She probably has a long line of failed relationships with men as well, due to her own attitude and behavior.

    Even if she found her alpha male, she would probably try to beat him down into a beta with her constant criticizing and emasculating behavior towards men in general (think deep psychological issues here with men from her past). A man with self-respect will probably leave (and judging by all her children without a father figure there, the man or men did leave).

    A lot of alpha men get turned into beta men over time through the phrases that I emphasized in his quotes… throwing themselves into family issues (or work), trying to show that they are the best husband and provider or father, thinking a real man’s strength (once married with children) is measured only by how much he gives… basically, an alpha man who has blue pill thinking (conditioning) will eventually become a beta more than likely.

    Red pill I believe, tends to keep a man more alpha in his behavior and mindset because he’s no longer taught to worship the female, that she can never be wrong, or that he is always the one who is wrong. Red pill teaches men to not accept less than what’s best for them, whereas blue pill is all about what’s best for women in society (and maybe children).

    Since feminism has run rampant and is completely based on selfishness, blue pill ideology no longer works because (women having more options) now exploit the blue pill system. Red pill is how men stay safe in an anti-male society and welfare state.

  25. I actually happened to find this post last night on enotalone – it had nothing to do with your personal situation. The entire post is analyzing this guy’s situation (which is really different from your own). The most fascinating part of his post on enotalone was the admission that he’d rather be a partner, not a leader… that was the entire premise of this post.

  26. Just good timing then 🙂
    His admission certainly is interesting! But I am also very interested in your general comments about alpha and beta men. It’s likely that my understanding is wrong (like I said, I haven’t been around the ‘sphere as long as you).
    So, do you think God creates men with different personalities, or that this is purely nurture (that men are born to be alphas, but nurtured into betas, etc?)
    (And for the record, from your definitions, my husband wouldn’t seem to be classified as a beta, either.)

  27. Red pill is weak sauce. Very weak. Unless your answer is “many women are unmarriageable.” Which is the takeaway I have. Sadly. My own soon to be ex was unmarriageable. She was 28, no kids, never been married before, parents still married, and yet quite unmarriageable. It’s sad, but she was.
    Game is no solution. Too hard to scale to the majority of men. We all know how much easier it is for a young woman to have her “journey” through dating various men before she decides to marry. While many men struggle more with finding partners. So in many couples, men get stuck with baby mamas or a woman with more sexual experience just due to a numbers game. I don’t think most men are really going to dominate these women through game. With all of the women bragging today about being difficult, or a handful, you can’t handle me… no ladies, we men cannot handle you. We men should opt out.
    And it’s sad, because men need women and wives. Women are more well rounded and better at social nuance. Left to their own devices, men have too many gaps in their makeup that are weak, and are too likely to lean towards their biases too much.
    Which is what we see with the man here. There have always been men like this. He’s a decent man with holes in his “life game.” What a good woman used to do with a man like this is emphasize his good qualities and try to nudge him in a better direction. Women are very good at manipulation, and a good wife can frame things so an indecisive man comes across as stronger to himself, her, and her children.
    Women struggle more with choice. They compare themselves too much to others, admire bad qualities in men, and are more fickle in their decisions. That’s where men are better. They simple change their minds less. So it’s not working out well to give women more if not all of the choosing power in mating.
    Red pill and “game” are about the equivalent of ration cards during a war. The ration system can be as well run as possible, but it’s no substitute for getting back to regular meals. Society needs a massive change back to traditional gender rolls, not relying on individual men’s ability to handle women.
    (I base most of my opinions above on observing my own parent’s marriage as compared to my frivorcing wife. My mother helped and supported my father, who was a good man but no alpha. She made sure he was as respected as possible. I don’t see what I realistically could have done with my wife other than to not marry her. I didn’t have better alternatives at the time.)

  28. OMG. I just wrote a long reply, and the puppy somehow made me hit something that erased the whole comment! wow!

    Red pill is weak sauce. Very weak. Unless your answer is “many women are unmarriageable.

    I do think many women now in our society are simply unmarriageable. The ones that do marry are often marrying a man for the wrong reasons (not real love and not real sexual attraction), and then proceed to have an unfulfilling marriage or a very miserable marriage.

    What a good woman used to do with a man like this is emphasize his good qualities and try to nudge him in a better direction. Women are very good at manipulation, and a good wife can frame things so an indecisive man comes across as stronger to himself, her, and her children.

    Sometimes, yes, more in the past… and this is because women understood how to be good women. There were always bad women though, or immature women that still didn’t get the main point of being good to their husbands. If you’ve ever read Rollo’s work, you would understand the past is not something to be romanticized. Women were always women and (even good women) are at times very conniving, I know because I am a woman, we have our own particular set of temptations and issues no matter how good we are – just like men do. The best women are the ones who are extremely good at letting God work on those issues to change them into better people. In the past, more women understood the value of having virtues, supporting their husbands, being good, kind and sweet to their husbands – now most women barely have a real grasp on what that looks like. In the past, more women understood the value of loving generously – they came to the marriage wanting to put into it what they brought (their temperament, their encouragement, attitude, etc.) in order to make a happy marriage. They understood more that sex and affection led to a happier marriage for both partners. But not all women in the past really got this either, there were just more social mores that helped women “get it” easier. There will always be immature women of any age, women who compare constantly their lives to others, compete constantly, or are just petty and always unhappy or gossiping about other women (or their husbands). Those kinds of women have always been around, feminism just unleashed their behavior as being acceptable, and the men who are married to immature women are often unhappy and know their wife is lacking in major character deficits, but this is not something “new” its simply more common now.

    You’re right that probably the best thing you could do in your situation was to not marry her if she was like the typical modern woman… its very hard to get a modern woman out of the mindset of validating her immaturity or non-reciprocity so that she can see the value in her husband and marriage (or life she’s made together with him). She usually has an internal double standard for herself and her husband, and you can’t get her to see how unfair it is. She has to have her needs and wants met, whereas his aren’t valid or important. She can break her promises or not meet his needs, whereas he HAS to keep his promises and meet her needs asap. She can behave however she wants, but he better be nice to her. She’s allowed to be immature in her behavior, not be a good supportive wife, or be too involved with her career, but he better not be. It’s constantly a female privilege mindset of HE for SHE (lol love that Emma Watson created that for us to use now).

  29. So, do you think God creates men with different personalities

    ***

    First, there is nothing wrong with being a quiet, introverted, or “gentle” male, these qualities do not necessarily have to mean that a guy is feminine (emasculated) as well. Alpha and beta are much more complicated that what most people seem to try to confine their definitions into. The best and most simplistic manner I can possibly attribute to what is “beta” is an attitude of deference or subservience to a woman’s opinions, her needs, or her desires. A kind of lack of confident authority or capable masculinity in a man. Being too dependent on her happiness for his own happiness… allowing her to run and rule the family while he takes a back seat as a pseudo-equal partner, or because she leads better “makes better decisions.”

    ***

    This is a common problem with men who have a skewed view of alpha vs. beta. There is no one cookie cutter creation for what makes an alpha. Every man is different, and it is a journey a man has to travel on his own, with God, to find his own identity. It is probably the most difficult life journey any man has to undertake in order to realize his full potential to be what & who God intended him to be.

    But believing that becoming “alpha” will somehow compromise his true “beta” self, he is undermining any advancement in personal growth, healthy boundaries, or even spiritual growth as he forgoes learning to acquire real strength and develop authentic masculinity. A healthy, strong, masculine man does not allow a woman to use him in such a manner. Such a parasitic relationship is not what God intended for him to “endure” in order to achieve a kind of “holy” sainthood for his sacrifice and dedication. Having strong boundaries, a strong sense of self-respect and healthy pride in himself, a confident assertiveness, and a clear mind that can see a situation for what it is and be able to avoid a woman’s petty manipulations – these are all qualities of a healthy “alpha” male. He does not need to change his innate gentleness or kindness, he just has to make sure he isn’t ruled by these qualities. He doesn’t have to become some kind of “ball-busting” asshole like he says she would prefer. While many criminals, sociopaths, and yes, assholes would be classified in the alpha category (and have the women to prove it), they are only alphas because they exhibit these traits (or take them to unhealthy extremes), not solely because of their anti-social behaviors.

    ***

    Possibly the most wonderful example of true masculinity depicted in literature is that of Jesus Christ. His unswerving strength, His confidence and capability, His boldness and courage, His assertiveness and toughness – all these masculine qualities were matched with calculated compassion, gentleness, love for children, joy, peacefulness, understanding. He was not an asshole, nor was he a blubbering emo. He was not merely a dutiful, quiet beta – He had much too much gumption and gall in fighting with the Pharisees than to be a compliant “peace at all costs” beta.

    He stood up for what was Truth, always exhibiting what was the opposite of cowardice.

    Which, when you really look at it, a beta male is afraid… afraid of his own masculinity. Society tells him its too dangerous, undesirable, or even wrong.

    But men, nothing could be further from the Truth.

  30. “OMG. I just wrote a long reply, and the puppy somehow made me hit something that erased the whole comment! wow!”

    Oh no! I hope your pup isn’t making the Kraken transformation. We used to call our pup the Kraken…we’d say, ‘release the Kraken!’ when taking him outside. He had SO much puppy energy. 🙂

    I agree that a great many women are unmarriageable today. People are different…I think women have changed more. Current social conditioning has led to a lot of destructive behavior that was very much anathema before. Men are not valued anywhere near as much as they should be, and that’s the bottom line problem. But I think a lot of men are different, too. I kind of inwardly cringe when I read the way the “gentle beta artist” describes himself…I surely can’t imagine the father from “Christmas Story” describing himself that way, or any other father figure (a stereotypical so-called “beta” figure by some) from Christmases past. The Father Knows Best Guy? Leave it to Beaver’s dad? Andy Griffith? George Bailey on It’s a Wonderful Life? ANY guy on any of these shows? They wouldnt’ describe themselves as nancy/sissy/”gentle beta” boys, and I think one’s self concept can be self fulfilling proposition.

    There’s nothing wrong with being an artist, that’s actually supposed to be a COOL thing. But art is about passion, and so is poetry. My husband wrote me a poem when we first started out. I’ve kept it in my wallet ever since (24 years now…lots of different wallets). He’d never describe himself as a “nice, gentle poet”.

  31. Not sure how many actual poets & artists could really be described as “nice” and “gentle”….wasn’t Byron described as “mad, bad, and dangerous to know?”

  32. Right… artists back then were almost taboo for being too seductive and sensual. The men were almost dangerous becauae of how they could ruin a girl’s reputation.

  33. Its been crazy with the puppy! The training has been going great lol… still working on the potty training though. But I can tell he really wants to learn and be good… so its easy in that respect. And yes I totally agree with u that men are devalued for all their essential masculine traits. So sad because we need men’s unique God-tailored qualities.

  34. As far as old TV characters go, what about Ralph Kramden? What about Barney Fife? Were they alpha? Kramden had bluster, but that was it. He labored at bus driving and was frequently duped when he schemed for anything.

    Barney Fife was a fool, and he still had a girl. Barney Fife was an alpha? The bar for a man worthy of a woman was a lot, lot, lower back then. Get a decent job, be a decent guy, you would eventually find a woman to share your life with. That is what most men are capable of. Men compete against other men every day and many fall short. Then they are supposed to come home to manipulative “wives” ready to divorce.

    How many “strong, confident alphas” do you think ever exist at any one time? You are talking about 1-2% of the male population ever. Most men struggle.

    And look at Andy Taylor. Andy Taylor dated Helen Crump for most of the show. She was an outsider, supposed to be a more modern woman. She was also an absolute witch. I have no idea why Andy Taylor would date her. I suppose he should have “gamed” her better, right? Right. Time to walk away.

    So again, it’s just the lack of “strong, confident alphas” that’s the problem. Where are all the good men at.

    IT’S THE WOMEN.

  35. Pingback: The Nice Guy Wants to Be Your Partner… | Honor Dads

  36. Indeed. As the saying goes, weak men make women angry, and angry women make men weak. If you’re afraid of leading, be a stronger partner. Or be single.

  37. I wanted to respond earlier but we were out and my phone was too hard to type in….
    That’s so sweet Liz about your husband ❤ Men can show those signs of love and affection (romance?) without being too feminine about it. My husband wrote and played a song for me (guitar) lol but he would never associate himself with some kind of gentle sweet singer or something.

    I think if a guy does those kinds of things all the time though, like constantly try to be over the top emotional and romantic (all about you – like your ex seemed to be), it's a major turn off – and this is a turnoff especially regarding beta guys I've noticed. There is almost a disgust there from a woman's point of view – a real repulsion to the way they are overly romantic and mushy. If they learn game, become outcome independent, and do a 180, the same women that were repulsed by them might actually feel strong attraction to them.

  38. It’s not just the lack of strong alpha men… obviously we’ve said that the major problem is the women changing over time (to become real pigs).

    But I actually do fault the beta males… I don’t like them at all. I’ll probably sound a little cray cray here, but they seem like they are usually the first to turn on someone (especially a man that is more alpha than them). It is the exact same dynamic of two women where one is envious of the other – it is impossible almost to have a healthy relationship if that dynamic is there. Until the lacking one gets rid of her envy – until the beta gets over his resentment of the alpha – they are just not in a healthy place psychologically.

  39. And… beta men often (but not always?) seem to have this strange kind of pride for being “better” than the alpha… a disgusting self-righteousness that makes them all the more unattractive (at least to me). They look down on game… look down on PUAs, and have a belief that they really know all there is to know about getting women – they just think women should love them for who they are and how they are.

    Some really are kind and sweet… or “gentle,” but this does not mean that alphas don’t have those qualities as well. But overall lack an authentic masculine confidence, and if you really REALLY watch them, they are passive-aggressive and destructive to other men around them. It’s yucky.

  40. “But I actually do fault the beta males… I don’t like them at all.”

    Can you see then how some women have trouble submitting to that? I mean, could you do it were you not smart enough or lucky enough to marry an alpha and ended up with a beta. The thing is what I always have stressed is there are only so many alphas to go around. And no matter how preety you are or how much effort you put into being feminine and submissive, there just aren’t enough of the sort of men out there that really turn women on. Keep in mind some women have to submit to men that you don’t “like at all” and that is probably challenging. Although, for me, I would rather say its the omegas that are more off putting and maybe that is really what you meant as most men are betas and most women are going to be married to them.

    “they just think women should love them for who they are and how they are.”

    Well, shouldn’t they (that is if its a specific wife and not women in general)? If a woman marries a beta, she is locked in and needs to find a ways to love them for who they are and how they are. Maybe she made a mistake, again wasn’t smart enough or lucky enough, but there she is.

  41. This is a big question (you really do bring up really good things)… I have to go out right now but will be back and will answer hopefully later tonight. It really is more complicated in my opinion. There are many contributing factors as to why a man is beta, how a wife should respond to him, and how to create a beautiful marriage with both partners in their “perfect” roles.

  42. I will elaborate on what my family was like, the men of the prior generation.

    My father worked in a feed mill. He ran a grinder. He tried to work in the office for about a year at one point, for more pay, but it was too stressful or something and he went back to his old job. He did this until he had to retire due to a heart condition.

    Other uncles worked in a lumberyard, for the highway department, as a postman, as a farmer. One had a series of jobs, always worked, but nothing consistent. THIS IS THE LIFE OF AN AVERAGE MAN. They were all married with children. No divorces.

    Today’s woman sleeps around for a decade or more before she marries. Prior generations did not do this to nearly the same degree. So she sleeps with some top guy once when she’s 22, or has a friend who did, and well that’s what she’s got to have.

    Alphas are RARE. Okay? A small percentage of men. Most men struggle and are okay. Not enough any more for apparently most American women.

    I don’t care how fabulous a woman thinks she is, the type of man she “feels she deserves” essentially doesn’t exist. Unless she wants to share with 15-25 others and be subject to being dropped from rotation at any time for any reason. It is a speculative bubble that exists in women’s heads.

  43. Yes, I did read all those parts of your post.
    I won’t waste your time on this any more – I’d say we just have different definitions of “alpha” and “beta”. 🙂

  44. Ok… first, you’re confusing two things here, one being that beta males are repulsive (for different reasons at times) and the other with how a wife who is married to a beta should act with him. In the rest of that quote, I said don’t like these betas because “but they seem like they are usually the first to turn on someone (especially a man that is more alpha than them). It is the exact same dynamic of two women where one is envious of the other – it is impossible almost to have a healthy relationship if that dynamic is there. Until the lacking one gets rid of her envy – until the beta gets over his resentment of the alpha – they are just not in a healthy place psychologically.

    A beta male is coming from a scarcity mindset/mentality… and this rears its ugly head when he’s in competition with other men. I’ve seen men like this that are catty, back-stabbing, spread gossip, manipulate, etc. Not all beta guys are like this obviously, I said that there are some that are genuinely nice and sweet, that really are just playing by the rules society taught them (blue pill femcentric rules). Rollo wrote a piece that explains all this well (excerpt):

    Beta Fights

    Being that beta men constitute the vast majority of men in modern society, one of the larger problems of being an abject beta is the sheer volume of sexual competition they experience from other betas. When a beta chumps is AMOG’d by an Alpha there’s an almost tacit understanding by the beta that the Alpha held an advantage over him. The Alpha had the physical, Game and status tools the beta does not. However, put two (or more) betas in contention with each other and they will resort to ever escalating feats of greater beta qualification amongst each other. When all you know is Beta Game, only more intense applications of that game is the natural response to competition within Beta Game.

    NGOKC is one such escalation in the Beta Game arms race. From Enter White Knight:

    Every random chump within earshot of your conversation about Game, about your ‘changed’ way of seeing inter-gender relations, about your most objective critical observations of how women ‘are’, etc. – understand, that chump waits everyday for an opportunity to “correct” you in as public a way as he’s able to muster. That AFC who’s been fed on a steady diet of noble intent, with ambitions of endearing a woman’s intimacy through his unique form of chivalry; that guy, he’s aching for an opportunity to prove his quality by publicly redressing a “villain” like you for your chauvinism.

    By essentially doxxing the Nice Guys on OKC, NGOKC is a blog dedicated to beta white knights attempting AMOG other betas while the women of the femosphere egg them on. The social impetus behind the blog is one of beta men jockeying for feminine approval by ever increasing declarations of being more suitable, more feminine identifying betas, than the so-called fraudulent Nice Guys they hope to expose. They’ve made a game of qualifying for the approval of the femosphere by looking for chinks in their competitor’s beta armor:

    “I’m a nice guy,..”

    “Charlatan! You want to oppress women by expecting to be the head of the household! I’m the real nice guy,..”

    “STFU rape apologist, says here you’re open to first date sex, and what type of guy has tats and piercings like that? Rapists, that’s who! I’m the real nice guy,..”

    “Misogynist, looks like you expect women to shave their legs,…FOR YOU!,..only fucking patriarchs think women should make themselves ‘acceptable’ for men,..I’m the real nice guy,..”

    The feminine influence naturally loves the beta dystopia between guys they’d never want to fuck otherwise because it primes their need for indignation while simultaneously satisfying a woman’s need for attention and affirmation of her own imperative.

    So not only are betas in an unhealthy mindset, easily jealous and sometimes even catty (all unattractive qualities), they also fight with each other to out-do one another in being the whitest knight of all… this behavior is also repulsive to most women.

    Anyway, now on to the part of asking me what I’d do if I was married to a beta man. hm….

    If I had married a nice beta guy that lacked confidence and didn’t act as manly as I desired, I probably would have married for wrong reasons (not out of genuine desire and love). But if I did do this, and married him, I would throw myself into loving him. Really whole-heartedly loving him for the man that he IS. I wouldn’t try to change him by nagging or criticizing or complaining because those things are just hurtful and cruel. See, most women who do marry betas are out to change them. These women are too self-conscious or not desirable enough to attract the men they’re REALLY attracted to, so they set out to try to change some poor beta guy into her fantasy man. I wrote about this (I think a week ago or two?).

    Anyway, I would love him. We would have frequent passionate sex where I would intoxicate him into finding his real masculinity. There’s something about meeting a man’s deep sexual need for desire and acceptance that brings him alive and makes him want to be a better man. Frequent amazing sex gives him the most amazing confidence boost he’s ever known. I would seduce him… fulfill all his fantasies, and we would have a good marriage together.

    Also from Rollo: http://therationalmale.com/2012/09/04/play-nice/
    http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/02/beta-game/
    http://therationalmale.com/2014/01/14/the-second-set-of-books/

  45. I guess I should also add that part of loving him would be being kind to him, supporting him, focusing on his good qualities, etc. I’m the kind of woman that this comes naturally for. I’ve never been a woman that compared myself to others, my particular sin seems to be naivety (it’s been said it’s either envy or naivety for women). But since I don’t compare, I make the best of whatever resources and qualities I happen to have on hand. This means, barring I had married a nutcase or sociopath narcisist, a basic beta male would not have been hard to love (genuinely love) for me.

    I’m not that big on physical attractiveness, I regularly find many different kinds of (very average, not classically handsome) men attractive (I’m not sure why)…. I was actually taught (by my mom) to actively look for good qualities in every man I meet when I was very young, so maybe that’s part of it. So I’m actually turned on by things like intellect, sarcasm, and wit. So (in that example) I would focus on my husband’s good qualities, give him the best sex he’s ever had (hopefully), and try to build a beautiful life with him. It’s that simple.

  46. “I wouldn’t try to change him by nagging or criticizing or complaining because those things are just hurtful and cruel.”

    Right, you change him this way…
    “I would intoxicate him into finding his real masculinity.”

    You will intoxicate or seduce a man into his masculinity and thereby change him. I find this won’t be an authentic masculinity. Men need to find this on their own.

    “See, most women who do marry betas are out to change them.”

    Again, and you will change him by being a sexual goddess. You are still changing him, but in a more acceptable red pill fashion.

    “These women are too self-conscious or not desirable enough to attract the men they’re REALLY attracted to, so they set out to try to change some poor beta guy into her fantasy man.”

    I think that isn’t too nice. It gets back to my comment. I said because there is a limited supply of the alphas, sometimes it just doesn’t matter how beautiful or submissive you are there just aren’t enough to go around. Don’t assume that if a woman doesn’t have an alpha she is an ogre. Attractive women are in higher supply than attractive men and its not that she can’t attract him, he just also has 10 other beauties competing for him.

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