I’ve written before how important sex is to men. How men need sex… how they crave quality sex versus quantity (though they don’t mind quantity). Its just who they are, and how they were designed to be, and is why since the beginning of time it seems, we have always had the oldest sins around – adultery and prostitution. These have always stayed with us, for very basic reasons that a wife would do well to understand.
This is not to say that women don’t also cheat on their husbands, apparently they seem to cheat just as much as men do – however, this post is for women to understand why their husbands may look at porn, have a fling, or a full fledged affair with another woman. Most often, when men search for sexual fulfillment other than their wife, they are doing so because they are craving something very particular.
Admiration
Virtually all men crave a woman who admires him. A woman who will listen to him when he’s talking about something he finds interesting, or when he’s giving his opinion. They want a woman who will be interested and fascinated with what he says – yes, I said fascinated. It turns them on to be in the presence of a hot woman (his wife) who is also giving him her entire attention and the right kind of feedback that says, “You are such an interesting man! Omg I want you! Now!!!”
When was the last time you reacted to your husband like that? I know… us wives are ridiculously tired, over-achieving, too much to do, have kids hanging off our legs at any moment when we’re at home (or out… at the store trying to deal with a meltdown). I understand, I’m a wife and mother of two now. But guess what? Your husband craves this kind of thing, and if this need is met by you, he will move mountains to ensure your happiness.
In our marriage, I’ve made sure to keep this aspect of our romance alive – its just how we’ve always been and I’m not “pretending” to be interested at all, its just second nature to me with him. Its affects on my husband have made friends jealous of how he treats me, because I play more the role of a lover, he plays more the role of a man who showers his lover with gifts and attention & romance. He brings me my favorite strawberry filled donut for no reason other than he thought of me at the store when he saw it. He, on the regular, buys me chocolate just because. He flirts and teases me like he did when I was 19… and I’m almost 29! We have the kind of relationship that others envy because I’ve chosen to be a different kind of wife. (do you hear that? I chose… any wife can make that choice) My role of being his seductive, passionate lover, in essence, strategically segued him into playing his role of being my favorite (and only) “client.”
Respect
How many men crave respect? All of them. They want to be known as the leader of their house, they want their wives to defer to them for decisions – but they want their wives to genuinely do it out of the feeling of respect, not just half-heartedly ask their husbands what they think, but to let them know that they are expressly interested in their husband’s response because of who he is.
They want a woman who looks up to them – who doesn’t try to outshine them or put them down – but who greatly esteems them and their opinions on matters (this ties in directly with Admiration). They don’t want a wife who will constantly argue and bicker with them over decisions and details, or one who challenges them and their headship constantly.
A woman who respects a man, treats him like a man… not like a child that has to be reminded or told what to do, but as a man who is capable. She believes in him and that he will do the right thing, and he feels it and can’t help himself to fulfill it for her (because he so wants to be perceived that way).
Desire
Husbands want a wife who genuinely desires him. A woman who does, treats foreplay differently. She kisses his neck, runs her nails across his chest or down his bare back, she doesn’t just lie there and expect him to give her all the foreplay pleasure… she takes initiative to give it to him as well which draws out his response.
She takes the sexual experience to a whole new level with how passionately involved she is in (and out) of bed. Desire is so intense (when you really feel it) that it can almost be tasted in the air. Men crave a woman who shows them this.
Addicted
Men want a woman who feels addicted to them, or who gives them the impression that they are.
A woman who has fun during sex, abandons her inhibitions and isn’t afraid to vocalize anything she’s feeling, thinking, or desiring, is why prostitution (and porn even) are such big addictions for men. Not only do the women usually look hot, the attitude they have seduces a man. They crave the attitude a woman has when she is addicted to a man – the attitude their wife may have had when their relationship was just starting out and redhot.
“Deeper!” “OMG you’re so big!” or screaming out during sex lets him know she’s addicted to him. Husbands crave this from their wives. They want to feel desired and like the woman is utterly and completely addicted to him, and only him.
If a woman has accomplished all these so far, you can be sure he is starting to get addicted to her as well. Men get addicted to this kind of sex and woman, it is why viewing porn acts like a drug in the brain. Virtually all men even if they have a porn addiction, would rather be addicted to a real, flesh and blood woman. All the more reasons for wives to take note!
Recipe for Disaster
So… like I’ve stated before, these are all basic emotions and feelings that lead to men turning to porn, having minor flings, or full-fledged affairs with other women. Men are seduced not just because of woman’s body, but because of her mind and the way she uses the Art of Seduction. If a man is lacking these basic needs in their marriage relationship, I would go as far as to say they are “starving” in these areas. If a man feels starved, it won’t take much to tempt him to take a bite… I’ve seen homeless men pull half-eaten food out of trash cans! They are that hungry that they’ll eat something rotting, old, germy, and disgusting… all because they are starving. If he’s full and having all these desires met, there is no need and no desire (at all) to take a bite of something less than ideal.
You, dear wife, are ideal. He wants you.
Oo, la la, now there’s a steamy post! ;)
I think you’ve nailed it there. Not much I can add. Men really need to be respected, admired, desired even. They need to be seen and wanted. That sounds like common sense, but it really isn’t. Our culture tends to teach the exact opposite, so we are all about what women want, but very little focus on men, so many girls grow up these days having no idea how to make men happy, and themselves happy in the process.
Thank you Insanitybytes!!! Yes, I think so too, I’d go even as far as to say that the things girls do learn, are actually things that turn men off. Like competing with men… men want to feel masculine, so when their wife or girlfriend competes in a masculine way and beats them, it makes the man less attracted to her. It sounds sexist, but it just IS. Women are most attractive to men when they are being women, not when they’re being masculine and beating him at something he prides himself in being good at. But I guess that would be another post…. :)
“Like competing with men… men want to feel masculine, so when their wife or girlfriend competes in a masculine way and beats them,…”
Little presumptuous. It’s that they need to turn everything into a competition. Not that they beat them at something. It’s the constant challenge at something that doesn’t need any challenging nor does he want to make it into a challenge. Usually played out in a man conveying in some way to give it a rest, he doesn’t want to get involved in a tug of war with a fun sucker. Just sucking any enjoyment out of being around her.
And often met with the closed minded script of not being able to handle the strong woman.
Oh for sure. I totally agree with you on this. I used to approach sex/relationships by assuming that my boyfriend wanted me to treat him like he treated me. Things were definitely a competition. After I made the switch to getting my “seductive girl game” on, our relationship and sex life has become better than I could have ever imagined! We’re both more satisfied, and we both feel more confident in our role as men and women. Excellent post, Dragonfly :)
“I used to approach sex/relationships by assuming that my boyfriend wanted me to treat him like he treated me. Things were definitely a competition. After I made the switch to getting my “seductive girl game” on, our relationship and sex life has become better than I could have ever imagined! We’re both more satisfied, and we both feel more confident in our role as men and women. Excellent post, Dragonfly”
As a serious Christian I doubt Dragonfly would approve of you seducing a “boyfriend”. This is about married husbands and wives.
That was in response to Insanitybites ridiculously bold claim, “Our culture tends to teach the exact opposite, so we are all about what women want”.
“Our culture tends to teach the exact opposite, so we are all about what women want, but very little focus on men”
The pendulum swung because previously it was all about men. Eventually we’ll find a balance and it will be all about BOTH. Or better yet, all about the kids.
But somehow I doubt that western people can put their kids ahead of their own selves. The concept of “family” seems to be about how much fun the adult partners are having together, not about sacrificing for the sake of the kids.
When has anything ever been all about men? That’s a pretty outrageous claim you are making and doesn’t fit with anything I have ever seen or read about. When was everything all supposedly about men?
Ummers, scroll up and read. That was in response to Insanitybites ridiculously bold claim, “Our culture tends to teach the exact opposite, so we are all about what women want”.
You got it exactly right and I am 81 married 59 years to the same woman.
“I’ve written before how important sex is to men. How men need sex… how they crave quality sex versus quantity (though they don’t mind quantity). ”
Interesting opinion. We always hear that women crave quality vs quantity sex and men the reverse. In your opinion do both crave quality vs quantity or do women crave quantity vs quality?
“These have always stayed with us, for very basic reasons that a wife would do well to understand.”
Sadly, the typical response is that they understand “men should keep it in their pants” and we women are not responsible for the behavior of men.” They miss that no one said they were responsible for the behavior. The point is they can create a set of circumstances that may encourage men to look for erotic fulfillment where they can find it if they can’t find it “at home.”
I am sure most women mistakenly see porn as being about the woman on screen. Her body. Her hair. Her breasts. Her face. Her hips, thighs, feet and on and on. While it is true a man may have a preference for looking at a big-breasted blonde with a plump booty, it is the particular sex act, attitude and posture of the female that draws him to that image, not THAT woman. What his partner also doesn’t understand is that she is not in competition with that female. He is not absolutely grading his wife to her on a part-for-part comparison; however, he is comparing the apparent attitude and pleasure of the woman in the image to what he desires from his wife. He wants his wife to desire him and to pleasure him as willingly and passionately as that woman looks to be doing the man in the image with her. Just try to get a woman to believe and accept that
The fact that it may be a posed situation and they are merely acting is not a factor. It is in how the action in the image is perceived by the viewer. If the viewer had a photo of themselves with their partner identically engaged, they would want to look at that over images of strangers. This is what drives homemade erotic images and sex in front of mirrors. We want to see ourselves enjoying sex with our partners and our partners enjoying sex with us. maybe even by themselves without us. We enjoy seeing our family members enjoy sports, their favorite meals, their favorite music and shows. Why wouldn’t we enjoy seeing our partners enjoy themselves sexually and sensually with AND alone without us?
I have only scratched the surface of your insightful post. There is so much more I could as about all the topics you list.
Wow Dan! I just learned so much more about men’s perspective on porn from what you disclosed. That lines up with exactly what my husband’s told me (his view on porn), and you go on further to show the sincerity of most men in desiring their wife compared to porn stars. It really is sweet much men love their wives, even when they might not be getting their needs met, they still usually only resort to porn instead of outright cheating. But they often feel guilty about porn and it never fulfills them the way their wife would (and they understand that). If only more women knew….
Ever hear a woman complain and at the same time confusingly wonder how a man can fantasize about a woman he doesn’t know, but has only seen and finds her really attractive? It’s because all that desire, the good attitude and the fun personality is being projected into the fantasy by him.
A woman that’s really nice looking but a man knows is a supreme jerk can be replaced in his head by one that’s not quite as nice looking but he knows nothing about.
“I am sure most women mistakenly see porn as being about the woman on screen. Her body. Her hair. Her breasts. Her face. Her hips, thighs, feet and on and on. While it is true a man may have a preference for looking at a big-breasted blonde with a plump booty, it is the particular sex act, attitude and posture of the female that draws him to that image, not THAT woman. What his partner also doesn’t understand is that she is not in competition with that female. He is not absolutely grading his wife to her on a part-for-part comparison; however, he is comparing the apparent attitude and pleasure of the woman in the image to what he desires from his wife. He wants his wife to desire him and to pleasure him as willingly and passionately as that woman looks to be doing the man in the image with her. ”
I’ve heard that there’s no foreplay in most of the porn out there. That’s its geared to male enjoyment rather than either female enjoyment or the enjoyment of both. That its highly unrealistic in that even though everyone knows they are acting, in real life its full of pain for the woman because she is not naturally lubricated or ready but is made to simply act like she is, giving some inexperienced men the impression that this is how sex works for women – very quickly, as it does for him/them, and that when they actually get with a real woman in real life they expect the same type of scenario to unfold.
Its nothing like sex in real life so why would men want that type of sex, knowing fully well women get nothing out of it, or even worse, they get pain out of. Unless you are saying men want their wives and girlfriends to fake it. A woman should never under any circumstances fake pleasure or an orgasm because that will only set her up for having to have it in the future as her partners will think he’s getting her off and has nothing more to do or learn. Women need to very clearly articulate what their partners are doing right and wrong, and teach them how to pleasure them. Of course no man or woman should be forced to do something that they are not at all comfortable doing such as oral sex, anal sex, pegging etc, but that is where communication come in.
Porn is a farce and no one should look to it as something obtainable in real life, unless they plan to go into the industry as an actor.
There are all kinds of porn, including the emo porn of certain games where the sex acts are intermittent, much like a movie, and the majority is highly sexualized interactions of the game characters. Typically with overblown tales of female submission. The Japanese usually make them. I reckon they are halfway between romance novel pornography and the hyper aggressive pornography you are referring to here. I do fully agree with you about pornography though. It is unrealistic and engaging in it in unsafe ways, such as habitual viewing, will lead you into sin and will create unrealistic expectations for men and women.
If women are going to engage in emo porn I think they should do so with their husbands. This way their husbands could learn what their wives like and enjoy. But so that they can grow together, in a realistic setting, women should avoid emo porn outside of marriage. That is if we are going to not abstain from emo porn entirely.
If she’s otherwise healthy with even a moderate libido, if a wife is not initiating sex with her hubby it pretty much means he’s a dud in the sack. When a woman is sexually satisfied by her man, she WILL initiate.
[Dragonfly] Oh, so you think its always the man’s fault why the woman is asexual?
Asexual? Did I say asexual? There are several physical reasons, and some emotional-mental ones, why a man or woman may not want to have sex with their spouse at any given time, but if a woman is in good health and has at least a moderate libido, if she is not initiating sex with her husband, and even worse, if she is avoiding sex with her husband on a regularly basis, then yes, I would say its very likely he sucks (and not in a good way) in bed.
There are many men who just don’t have the skills their wives require to experience pleasure. There’s help out there for them, a lot of it in fact, but some men are resistant to seeking help in that area, even reading a book, forget about a workshop or a weekend at One Taste or something like that. True story!
What if a wife is like a sack of potatoes in bed? What if sex with her is simply masturbation with her body? If she were to engage and attempt to seduce her husband then her husband would fantasize about his own wife and burn with passion for her.
And if a man is so terrible in bed then why did his wife marry him?
StringsofCoins
“What if a wife is like a sack of potatoes in bed?”
It goes both ways. If a couple is relatively young and healthy and both have at least moderate libidos, and if the wife is like a sack of potatoes in bed despite her husband having stellar venusian skills, then she needs to learn a thing or three.
“And if a man is so terrible in bed then why did his wife marry him?”
Some people don’t have sex before marriage, believe it or not. And also sometimes they start out being better in bed than they are later. Some people get lazy. Familiarity can breed not only contempt, but boredom and and a “meh” attitude.
Mad Yale Grad,
I think you are failing to fully understand how women reach their peak sexual fulfillment. It’s not by some skillfully foreplay that leaves them satisfied. It’s by satiating their hypergamy. Make a woman know that you are better then her, above her, and then dominate her and you can sate her hypergamy.
There are interesting studies on the female orgasm. Did you know that women self report stronger orgasms and better sex based on how wealthy they believe the man is? Not how wealthy he actually is but how wealthy they believe he is.
If a woman wants to help herself have a better sex life then she should submit to her husband spiritually, mentally, and physically. You will no doubt retort that it’s the man’s job to bring the woman to that point. It’s the man’s job to conquer the woman’s hypergamy. And he has to do it every day. Over and over. And she will make it far more difficult by engaging in female porn and by competing in the “who has a worse husband” victim Olympics that women hold.
Men don’t want to have to battle a woman’s hypergamy every day while the woman is actively sabotaging her husband’s ability to sate her hypergamy. If the choice is being single and spinning plates or trying to endlessly sate a woman’s hypergamy while she actively works to prevent you from doing so then I will take spinning plates.
Unfortunately most women are actively taught that they should never go anything for a man and they should compete in the “worst husband Olympics”. They are taught to act in ways that damage and destroy their marriages and their ability to love their husbands. We all see this going on around us constantly. That’s why this post by dragonfly is to refreshing to see. A woman who is trying to figure out ways to keep her husband, to build him up, to support his confidence, so that he can be a successful leader and he can sate her hypergamy.
Strings, “There are interesting studies on the female orgasm. Did you know that women self report stronger orgasms and better sex based on how wealthy they believe the man is? Not how wealthy he actually is but how wealthy they believe he is.”
What was the sample size? What were the controls? How many ages, ethnicities and cultures were represented and what were they?
In fact, if a girl only picks ONE thing to do… pick the screaming/vocalization during sex. When I realized that Mrs. St. James likes what I (would have formerly) called a very “rapey” vibe during sex, including wall-slamming uh, thrusting power, things got approximately a billion times more awesome.
She yells and thrashes and basically wills the sperm out of me. We don’t always hit that point, but when we do, we like to say our actual souls are fucking and not just our bodies.
Yes! Women love that – its ultimate dominance and they crave it from their man, but only if its genuine.
Not to derail, but I wanted to add this:
I realize I probably have a dramatically different perspective than others with regard to porn and sex workers. The sex workers who I know usually do enjoy their play dates and the films they make. One dominatrix I know describes herself as simply a kinky therapist.
It’s not degrading, there’s no hate involved, and there are SO MANY interesting stories to tell. (And perhaps surprising to some, women can “get going” faster than we think. It’s not as “faked” as one might think.)
I’ve learned a lot about people, relationships, and sexuality from folks who do sex work—I’m sure not all of them are cool and personable and mentally healthy, but most of them are very solid human beings.
I’ve known a couple of prostitutes, as well, they are the most honest human beings I’ve ever met. And yes, they know everything about sex and relationships – much more than the average Christian does.
“I realize I probably have a dramatically different perspective than others with regard to porn and sex workers. ”
Sex work should be legalized and mainstreamed, in my opinion. Sex Surrogacy should again become a valid career choice. Its somewhat different from prostitution, requires a degree and/or license and is a legit sex therapist but he or she can have sex with clients if deemed necessary to help them. It was once legal in the States a long time for a short time but got quickly shut down.
I’m surprised One Taste hasn’t gotten shut down by the Feds yet, considering the “sex work” they do. Its a type of sex surrogacy in a way and while you can bring your own partner to OM with, they also provide “trainers” and “coaches” for the couples and singles without someone in tow as well. The creator had a TED Talk and everything so maybe that’s why it hasn’t gotten busted. “Changing the world one orgasm at a time” type of “revolution” I guess.
I actually know a couple who swear by it.
The link is clean and safe for work onetaste.us.
Reblogged this on sailordale.
I disagree with your thoughts on porn. Many men turn to porn in adulthood because they were exposed to it very early (9-12 years old) and it changed their brain. Porn is not at all just about sex or their need for sex. When a boy or a man views porn and has a physical reaction to it, it changes his brain and his view of reality. Very quickly, a male exposed to porn will become less able to truly bond with others. The most available and willing wife in the world cannot “help” a man addicted to porn. Porn numbs him and drugs him. Statistics back this up. It becomes his drug of choice. Most men turn to porn NOT because of an unfulfilled sexual drive but because of pain.
[Dragonfly] There are many many cases proving what you are saying is not true. I understand that for some, that is the case, but you are trying to blanket your limited understanding and put it onto everyone else’s life experience. My husband was addicted to porn before we got married. He credits ME with helping him get over it. He has not looked at porn in almost 8 years now. But you say that “the most willing and available wife in the world cannot “help” a man addicted to porn.” You’re either lying, or ignorant.
There are HUNDREDS of ministries and counselors who agree with what I have said above…
[So?]
because they have lived it. Talk to a man who turned to porn for many years and battled it and won. Wait, you just said that they can’t be helped! How could he win then? He will tell you that porn numbed his pain and that it was drug. If porn is only a sexual issue, why does the use of porn eventually lead to the loss of all initiative in a man? Men who use porn frequently, lose their businesses, their families and, eventually, their minds. Obviously, you are exaggerating. If this were true, our world wouldn’t have ANY functioning men LOL. You are a fruitcake dear! They become so overfocused on having a physical reaction to a false image that they lose their memories and can no longer focus on anything. LOL
A wife who discovers her husband is using porn has every right to be very alarmed and very hurt. He has defiled their marriage. Adultery is bad but how can a woman compete with airbrushed photos? You are incredible! This is why most women will never get it. Now you are actually saying that porn is WORSE than a man having an affair with a REAL LIFE WOMAN. You are losing your case even further here with your exaggerations. Porn usage is the ultimate selfish, inwardly turned sexual act. Not always, sometimes it is a man’s only relief from sexual frustration because his wife is being THE SELFISH WIFE and withholding much needed sex from him. He is choosing the less bad option here, keeping his family in tact, trying to sate his sexual need, feeling horrible guilt usually over it, still desiring her all the while… and you want to put him on trial. I wish I could look into your life and see YOUR OWN HIDDEN SINS, I am sure there is one at least, comparable to a man’s porn addiction. It has nothing to do with reality or sexual need. Riiight.
Here is one of MANY sites on sexual addiction and porn. This couple saved their marriage after YEARS of hard work but the hard work did NOT begin with the husband telling the wife that she hadn’t met his needs!! http://tuffstuffministries.com/
Lol. As religions go, “porn scares me so I hate it” is one of the less inspiring ones.
If you go down this rabbit hole, at least try something like “For God so loved the world, He sent His only begotten Son that we might not die but have everlasting life.” There’s a story there at the very least.
“Lol. As religions go, “porn scares me so I hate it” is one of the less inspiring ones.
If you go down this rabbit hole, at least try something like “For God so loved the world, He sent His only begotten Son that we might not die but have everlasting life.” There’s a story there at the very least.”
Um, but aren’t the later the ones who usually say the former?
Or they say, “porn is sinful so I hate it”. 6 of 1, half dozen of the other. They also say masturbation is sinful.
Bleh. Yes. The “porn changes your brain” thing isn’t wrong, it’s just right about the wrong thing. ADDICTIONS change your brain, not porn. Like my mother in law: her “porn” is terrible eating habits and the resulting obesity. Porn or food or alcohol or reality TV isn’t a problem until it becomes a problem.
“No no, my ex-boyfriend was addictied to porn and it wrecked our relationship!” Well, you ex-BF was addicted to ___________ and THAT is what wrecked it. The problem isn’t porn, the problem is the person.
(I say all this as a happily married guy whose ridiculously innocent wife also enjoys porn, and who counts a number of sex workers as friends.)
Sorry to comment again, Dragonfly, but I had to add: normal-ass dudes KNOW that sex with a real woman is freakin awesome (and it’s free if you’re smart!). Dudes who sincerely go to porn FIRST when they have a willing wife waiting in bed are crazy. Something’s broken. It’s not porn’s problem, it’s that the dude truly cannot correctly evaluate sexual experiences.
And (duh) it’s that the wife won’t have sex with him. Which blows a guy’s mind—a girl who whill semi-happily marry him, but never bother to have regular sex with him. The inverse is also true for women—a dude who will semi-happily fuck her, but never bother to commit to her.
The dumbest rationalization we have in the theory of marriage is that women have a lower sex drive. They certainly initiate sex less often, but yeah… not a lower sex drive. Mrs. St. James would say she’s receptive almost all the time, but initiative only during ovulation.
Believe me, I don’t blame women at all. Not that I don’t believe in God, but we humans absolutely are just a bunch of selfish and evolved monkeys who are optimizing our mating strategies. As a guy, my advice to guys is: don’t settle for the girl who’s settling for you.
Everyone would be happier that way.
Timber, women who are healthy and of at least moderate libido initiate sex and certainly don’t refuse it, unless the sex itself is bad, the lover/husband lacks in skills or some way.
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Well done Dragonfly!
This post is more for women than men so I won’t comment too much on it, except to add my agreement. I think many women now are acutely aware of their (transient) visceral sexual power over men, but little aware of the power they have of eliciting a man’s devotion, often with so small an effort on their part.
But I suppose it’s less a matter of effort than a matter of perspective. You need to look up from your reflection. You need to be willing to discard your conceptions of yourself as an autonomous woman. Rather than buying a nicer pair of overalls, you need to learn to find a pretty summer dress. It’s a similar process, I imagine, for a man to swallow the red pill.
I’m honored that you commented FTS, I like reading your comments at The Rational Male. And yes, you are right that it’s comparable to men’s process in taking the red pill, however, I think it’s worse for men in a way because they find out things they’ve never really known, they suddenly find they’ve been betrayed by nearly everyone in their life. Women instinctively know their power over men, its why Victoria’s Secret is such a huge booming business with even a brand for teenage girls to get addicted to it. Women know they can seduce men, whereas men don’t usually have a clue about how to be alpha.
Hmm, two things.
First, I’d point out that yes, women are quite aware of their ability to seduce men sexually. This ability is emphasized at the expense of any depth of character or breadth of accomplishment; as a result we get women who are great at looking sexy, or who ragequit and pack on the pounds in protest (a lot of things contribute to our obesity epidemic, but I suspect this is part of the reason women are disproportionately represented among the obese). At the same time we get few women who really understand how to maintain a man’s love and devotion, and sustain his happiness, in the long term.
Men have much the opposite issue. Their role as providers/LTR material is exaggerated beyond reasonable bounds, and their ability to be viscerally arousing (alpha) suffers profoundly as a result. They know far too well how to be appealing to a woman’s more placid emotions. They either become whipped betas or ragequit and go full PUA or MGTOW.
So I’m not so sure women are given more knowledge as they are given different knowledge, and discouraged from finding what they lack. The current culture’s rhetoric against women being traditional, much less submissive, is vicious and relentless. It’s kind of like the rhetoric against men being ‘mean’ or ‘oppressive.’ Though I do think the former influence is quite a bit lesser than the latter. Which leads us to the second thing –
I think a lot of what prevents a woman from discovering what men desire in an LTR (on top of acculturation) is based on internal rationalizations and deceptions, fueled by the intensity of desire they are capable of creating in the short term. I’m not sure I can really speak to a woman’s experience here, but let me pose a rhetorical question – how frequently does your average woman confess that she is solely responsible for some harmful thing to befall herself or others? The self-accusatory angle probably dissuades many women from even contemplating that they might have things fundamentally wrong.
It wasn’t my personal experience swallowing the RP that I had been betrayed by everyone around me – I was lucky enough to have had a good number of warnings – but a lot of men have that sentiment. And I think the rage against the culture, or family and friends, or whatever it may be, serves as a useful externalization until a man can come to full understanding of the red pill – including his own complicity in carrying out his former blue pill programming. So I wonder if a lack of such obvious targets actually serves as a roadblock in women accepting the sort of mindset you advocate for.
I suppose that’s a lot of text to basically say ‘I’m not sure who has it harder.’ But it is difficult to judge; men certainly have it harder in that red pill awareness and game requires behaviors and mindsets that just don’t add on top of their previous understanding of gender interactions, but turn the whole game on its head. Learning to be arousing to a woman is very counterintuitive to a man if he’s used to thinking with his head at all more than his balls. I don’t think woman have a comparable experience to that.
Thanks for the kind words.
” Women instinctively know their power over men, its why Victoria’s Secret is such a huge booming business with even a brand for teenage girls to get addicted to it. Women know they can seduce men, whereas men don’t usually have a clue about how to be alpha.”
Believe it or not there are clueless women out here. It appears you live in a bubble due to all the male attention you received in college. That means you ranked at least an 8 out of 10 on your particular campus. You may say, “I’m not that beautiful” and you may be right, in general when compared on a campus in an area of the US or the world that has better looking people on average. But within your own pond, you were certainly one of the prettier fish. Average looking women and certainly below average looking women, who comprise most women here, did not have those experiences. You probably don’t mean it but you come off as non-sympathetic to the average and below average looking American woman’s experience. Probably because you have nothing to relate it to in your own life, so you can’t empathise with them.
It’s a bit pointless to comment on pornography if one begins by saying “I don’t know what it is, but it’s icky and men are uniquely prone to its evil charms.”
Even so, before a woman assigns a kind of sexual Original Sin to males — and uses the porn industry as evidence — she might examine all of the socially acceptable forms of idolatry. Examples might include the corrupting materialism, narcissism, and celebration of the ‘perfect’ family, that are the mainstays of female-oriented popular and social media.
Also, the notion that women do not consume porn is quite amusing in a society that celebrates sex-pozzie feminism, female sex tourism, Mylie and Madonna. Women, educated and otherwise, know exactly the contours of the sex industries. It’s the same shibboleth as “men have more affairs”: what women self-report is not reality. What really annoys feminists is when men figure this shit out, and, bingo, the feminist shaming commences with their playing the ‘sex pervert’ card. Some men decide not to allow women to control or meter or monitor or — cue Catherine MacKinnon — *define* what is an acceptable sexual ethos, inside or outside marriage.
Finally, there are many reasons to be skeptical about the sex and porn industries. (Also, given current female attitudes toward sexual capriciousness and entitlement, they’re increasingly unnecessary, at least to men who don’t think they’re B-Team actors in a virtual chick flick.) Women who comment with such hostility, however, usually fail to note that the largest literary category is that of the romance novel (emo porn). Emo porn is at least as dangerous in it’s idealized, fantastical assumptions about female entitlement for handsome princes, and far more dangerous in the sense that it carries no social taboo. The romance novel publisher Harlequin Romance publishes 110 novels — PER MONTH — and as I recall there is the unsettling reality that 50 Shades is the most popular book in UK history, after the Bible. It outsells Shakespeare.
My dating cohort is almost exclusively executive, independent women of a post-feminist bent, and about half of them consume both the icky porn portraying sex, the soft-porn of the romcom/Jane Austen variety, the idolatry porn of prestige travel, BMWs and Dwell and Vanity Fair magazines. More than half of them want me to take them to strip clubs (of course, I’ve only gone to a strip club for the conversation), think Gwyneth Paltrow is cool for pronouncing publicly on bush-grooming philosophy, have way more vibrators than I have hands, think Toni Bentley’s book — which was reviewed in the socially acceptable NY Times — is a tribute to female empowerment. (No, I’m not going to say how many complain about not getting more up the back door.)
Women who sneer at male sexuality and revile it as innately corrupt tend not to know, or choose to deny, heterosexual female practices and attitudes. I suppose that’s because they’re anti-sex, and regard seduction as supportive of the Patriarchy. Or they are seducers of the “show up naked with a bottle of rye and a tube of KY” variety.
Thank you for commenting Buena Vista, love how brought up women using porn, romance novel emo-porn (what you said is exactly right):
Women who comment with such hostility, however, usually fail to note that the largest literary category is that of the romance novel (emo porn). Emo porn is at least as dangerous in it’s idealized, fantastical assumptions about female entitlement for handsome princes, and far more dangerous in the sense that it carries no social taboo. The romance novel publisher Harlequin Romance publishes 110 novels — PER MONTH — and as I recall there is the unsettling reality that 50 Shades is the most popular book in UK history, after the Bible. It outsells Shakespeare.
It is at least as dangerous – if not more – for all the women who are married to their Beta Bux. The men displayed in those books are incredibly and impossibly “Alpha” – they automatically AMOG any husband. And yet women like this one only want to focus on visual porn being (as you so correctly said) “icky!” because it has sex.
I suppose that’s because they’re anti-sex, and regard seduction as supportive of the Patriarchy.
lol I’m thinking it’s this one^^. I wish every woman would love her husband enough, desire him enough, to want to seduce him.
[Oops! Sorry got the italics all wrong!]
“Also, the notion that women do not consume porn”
– Who said that?! MOST American women under the age of 50 are watching porn.
“The romance novel publisher Harlequin Romance publishes 110 novels — PER MONTH ”
So what? The romance novel industry makes under 15 million annually while porn is multi-billions. You are trying to make the case that women watch porn, and they do, but then you say its romance novels. Nope. Women are part of why the hardcore porn industry is in the multi-billions.
Sweetheart, aside from your repetitive habit of deciding what other people really think and what experiences they’ve really had, which is a form of talking to yourself in a mirror, you have serious reading comprehension issues coupled with an inability to process objective information.
There are *individual* romance novelists who clear more than $15mm a year. As I previously noted, it’s the largest irreligious literary genre in existence.
Remember Truman Capote’s axiom: typing is not writing.
Do some research, and this does not mean regurgitating third-wave feminist talking points, and attempt to fit your bizarre models of human behavior and economic activity to actual evidence.
You should probably re-read your prior pronouncements that porn, which you haven’t seen (“I’ve heard …”) but about which you have definitive opinions, is geared solely to men. So I guess you could be implying that women are consumers of something that doesn’t reflect their sexuality, practices or needs. I await your unwinding that premise.
Also, you know very little about heterosexual female sexual response. Are you in college and/or a lesbian? That would explain the trolling. You continue to describe female sexuality as a natural state in which men are unattractive sexual incompetents, who have only themselves to blame for not getting enough duty sex from their long-suffering spouses.
Expiating on the internet, to men, in lieu of eating a bullet or drinking 24×7, is helpful. As I am no longer confessing on the internet, I would appreciate your not referencing those indiscretions, to women who have an Ivy League handle, as though that adds weight to opinion. I just put my Ivy stickers on my Volvo breadbox wagon, and leave it at that so the cops think twice before tossing the car.
Your point of view is of value, to men and women. I suspect your husband is a fortunate guy.
Understood. I’m sorry.
Actually, single professional women are more of the ‘rye and KY’ persuasion. Which is fine if we men take our vitamins, I guess.
Preach Sister……
Really well done……keep spreading the news.
“I wish every woman would love her husband enough, desire him enough, to want to seduce him.”
I disagree with this and the general theme of this post, NOT in that we shouldn’t be available to our husbands, be charming, sexy, etc, but in the use of the word seduce.
If you look at the 1828 Noah Webster definition of seduce, its not a word of something you should “want” to do to your husband. I rely on the 1828 version as its more accurate to true definition of words and Christian based.
SEDU’CE, v. t. [L. seduco; se, from, and duco, to lead.]
1. To draw aside or entice from the path of rectitude and duty in any manner, by flattery,
promises, bribes or otherwise; to tempt and lead to iniquity; to corrupt; to deprave.
Me the gold of France did not seduce. Shak.
In the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits.
Tim. 4.
2. To entice to a surrender of chastity. He that can seduce a female is base enough to betray her.
I share your interest in the historical Webster, and use the 1913 edition myself. There’s a wonderful essay on McPhee and his patient, precise, poetic use of diction to elaborate on seemingly prosaic things, which I think you’ll enjoy:
http://jsomers.net/blog/dictionary?utm_content=buffere842a&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
If we’re going to cherry-pick Biblical verses in order to diminish the role of feminine sexual devotions to a husband, however, in order to assert that a woman pleasing and supporting her husband is merely a invitation to corruption (“to entice to a surrender of chastity”), we’re not just on scriptural thin ice. We’re plunging through it. We’re throwing out the entire Biblical notion of married sexual devotions.
I struggle with your suggestion that such devotions, between wife and husband, are corrupt. Actually, I would say that asserting that they are is the inverse of a Biblical understanding of sex and marriage.
What is secular about the assertion is that it suggests that sex is something a woman arbitrates, a woman meters out according to *her* temporal feelings; it suggests that a woman has no obligation to grace her marriage with sexual attentions and desires. This is not a Christian concept, it is a feminist Churchian idea. It diverges utterly from Biblical instruction, and is in fact idolatrous, as it elevates a wife to a blasphemous position of sexual authority. (Though it is the dominant attitude even within the evangelical community.)
Hence saying that “If I seduce you I am imperiling your chastity” is faux Biblical lipstick on a secular pig. It’s merely a restatement, with a Biblical, out of context footnote, of Mad Yale’s loopy conviction that sex is something that just happens if the man is any good at seduction and schtupping. There’s absolutely no basis for that thesis in the literature of sex, marriage, and couples’ behavior over time. It does justify, I guess, why so many self-described Christian women deny their marriages sexual intimacy. And then shame their men for their desires. Many of these women assert a primary ‘relationship’ with Jesus, and subordinate their men to the role of provider and protector. Not only does the notion of a feminine ‘relationship with Jesus’ not exist in the Bible, the word ‘relationship’ does not exist. If we’re going to talk about the corruptions of the flesh, in marriage, we should probably start by representing scripture accurately when we justify personal choices.
I did not cherry pick. That verse was part of definition as an example of usage and came along with the definition. If it helps clarify my position I am 110% on the side that women should be having sex frequently and doing anything and everything to please husband. I just cringe at the word sefuce. There must be a better word.
I once knew a Christian girl that also had issues with thinking of married sexual fulfillment being akin to “corruption” and against her “purity/chastity.” I wasn’t close to her, but a mutual friend of ours showed me her invitation to her lingerie shower. It shocked me. She didn’t want anything “racy” or “too sexy” to be given as gifts for her lingerie.
I get it that people definitely have different tastes… but this just reminded me of that line from Sandra Bullock’s Miss Congeniality “They’re Satan’s panties!!!” Why do women wear lingerie? The whole purpose is to seduce… and within marriage, there is nothing wrong with that. It’s odd to me to be so caught up in the word itself that you say you disagree with the post that wives should learn the Art of Seduction.
It’s odd to cringe at things that are ok within the sexual context of marriage – or to make such a big deal out of the print (her invitation also said no leopard print), and to take something good and intended for pleasure (seduction between married lovers) and twist it to imply that they are corrupting each other. There’s nothing wrong with the word seduce in how I am talking about the Art of Seduction. Just like there’s nothing wrong with lingerie that’s “racy” or “too sexy.” Its sex-negative feminism to misapply that way (or I guess as others would say in the manosphere, its Churchian feminism).
There’s nothing wrong with “Satan’s panties!” <3
Buena Vista, you reminded me of this post http://girlwithadragonflytattoo.com/2014/08/26/how-christianity-early-feminism-messed-up-sex-marriage/
There is sex-positive feminism (think Beyonce) or sex-negative feminism (think Churchian, purity-over-sex, kind of thing).
This is the link I was thinking of, it is the second post of the How Christianity & Early Feminism Messed Up Sex & Marriage. http://girlwithadragonflytattoo.com/2014/09/02/religious-assurance-that-god-hates-sex-how-christianity-early-feminism-messed-up-sex-marriage/
“I once knew a Christian girl that also had issues with thinking of married sexual fulfillment being akin to “corruption” and against her “purity/chastity.” I wasn’t close to her, but a mutual friend of ours showed me her invitation to her lingerie shower. It shocked me. She didn’t want anything “racy” or “too sexy” to be given as gifts for her lingerie. ”
A lingerie shower? Seriously? I’ve never heard of such a thing. Is it a thing or was that a one off event?
Christians aren’t the only ones to feel some kind of way about being told sex is bad (even sex with oneself, go figure) up until they marry and then all of a sudden they are expected to turn into uninhibited studs and nymphomaniacs. I’ve known Muslims and Jews and Buddhists and others deal with this. I think it has to do with the contrast in consciousness between being totally fixated on God or a state of transcendence to then being totally absorbed in the temporal flesh. I don’t think your average run of the mill Christian or Buddhist or whatever would feel that. But those who are really deep into a contemplative practice, or those who have taken on a particularly shame-based view of their own body and natural sexuality would.
My favorite Satan’s Panties are La Perla. Of course, as a friend told me recently, you could feed an entire African village with what they cost.
I read, on the internet so it must be 100% true, that French professional women spend 30% of their income on lingerie. It sounds like the nut in the lingerie shower story wanted kevlar nursing bras with the inscriptions “We just have mismatched libidos!” or “You know I don’t like to do that, isn’t once a year on your birthday enough?” Perhaps I’m wrong. Maybe on the back of her mommie drawers they say “Are you done yet?”
Forcing a husband to live in a humiliating virtual celibacy — because he won’t step out on his wife — or violate his vows by stepping out, that ain’t Christian. And if using the word “seduce” is proscribed dirty talk, holy sexual desert, Batman.
I’d say that “Churchian feminism” is a redundancy. But that is the ethos of most churches, and why Christian churches, like divorce, are 70% chosen, attended and run by females.
I have a friend who attended seminary, is a Ph.D in theology, is a conservative Baptist (which I regard as pretty darn conservative). He is a masculine man: hospital exec, motorcyclist, weightlifter, Mr. Fixit around the house. Eats right, doesn’t drink. He loves his wife and daughters, his home, his life. His wife gives him some starfish action once-twice a month, provided she gets a buzz on first. But now that he doesn’t drink at all, she won’t have her three glasses of wine before somnolently reclining and thinking of OU Football, or whatever she thinks about. She is an empowered “Christian” woman, and university professor. That’s a 20-year relationship that I do not think will see 2016. Women who don’t want to have sex shouldn’t ruin everyone’s life by taking marriage’s provisioning and other comforts. There’s nothing wrong with crochet and kittens.
I take your point on the sex-solely-for-procreation fallacy. I don’t really buy it though, today, because, even in sola scriptura congregations, the married women are dressing for sexual attractiveness, and pimping out their teenage daughters. The rhetoric of churchian seduction is different than the rhetoric of secular seduction (as is, I suspect, the quality of the fruit), but divorce rates aren’t much better in the former. If the women can trade up to a man they find more attractive than the one they’ve got, they often do. “Christian” or not.
As an example of the distortions in churchian culture, consider the concept of the “technical virgin.” I don’t know about other people, but some sexual practices I didn’t need to learn in high school, just to sustain a technical virgin teenager’s intact hymen.
I get flat-out hustled when I go to church. The skepticism men like me have is that even in evangelical culture, and the rise of pop stuff like the Promisekeeper b.s., men are just utilities to be efficiently allocated to a deserving woman. Then he has to ‘earn’ his spouse’s affections. An elder in one church I attend is a very pleasant big guy, on marriage number two. He was over at my house once, and in our first real conversation (which was supposed to be about a wrecked motorcycle I was selling), he teared up and said how he had just pulled off the road to pray on how to please his wife. From there we went to way TMI, and all I could think to say was, “Have you considered the fact that she’s a restless, manipulative bitch?” She rolls out the cleavage on Sunday and does the reaching for the sky thing during the idiotic soft-rock praise songs to boyfriend Jesus.
Anyway, as a ‘mature man’ it takes about five seconds to know which couples are attracted to each other. And no more to discern who gets to have conversations about ‘mismatched libidos.’ Attraction and respect are the key variables.
If you’re interested in an evangelical view of why men are not churched up, see David Murrow:
Why Men Hate Going to Church
Actually, as he notes (while referencing more scholarly sources) the feminization of European/North American christianity is a very old problem; the sex ratio imbalances go back a long time.
For example, can one imagine an evangelical pastor today exhorting:
“Whoever drinks beer, he is quick to sleep; whoever sleeps long, does not sin; whoever does not sin, enters Heaven! Thus, let us drink beer!”
or,
“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly.”
or, and more precisely on point here:
“Let the wife make her husband glad to come home and let him make her sorry to see him leave.”
though I confess, this is my favorite:
“He who loves not wine, women and song remains a fool his whole life long.”
All quotes Martin Luther.
Some of us don’t need Satan’s panties and still have tons of sex or seduce just fine. The over emphasis on lingerie gets me. Not all men care for it. So what I want to know is if you are having sex twice a day but just don’t like the seduce term are you somehow doing it wrong?
I think your personal sexual habits should best be unexamined by other people, and certainly not me.
“or seduce just fine” Wait a minute! I thought you were caught up on the word being wrong – therefore the whole post was wrong???
“Some of us don’t need Satan’s panties and still have tons of sex or seduce just fine. The over emphasis on lingerie gets me. Not all men care for it.”
Most men couldn’t care less. It all comes off pretty quickly anyway. Women are into it. They like to buy expensive useless stuff that “feels good on my skin”.
“French professional women spend 30% of their income on lingerie.”
Shameless consumers. And Frenchmen have a global reputation for cheating so all that lingerie seduction obviously isn’t working.
Men very much care about sexy underwear. When a man’s wife wears sexy underwear it causes the man to believe that his wife desires him. When done correctly. It’s the desire the man believes that his wife is experiencing, for him and him alone, that creates the seduction.
You’re right String of Coins! It shows the man that she was thinking of him.
“Men very much care about sexy underwear.”
You do. But you don’t speak for all men everywhere. Sexy underwear is not universal. Nor is the love of it. Just sayin’.
MYG,
I’m not sure if you are somewhere on the autistic scale or deliberately misunderstanding. It’s not even necessarily the lingerie, though if you bother to have a nice body it is a massive visual stimulation for every single man. It’s the desire for the man that the man believes he is seeing. How can you still not get this? Men are not women. Men don’t have anything like your hypergamous desires.
And yes all men like lingerie. The only reason they would not like it is because your body is gross. It sounds to me like you need to lose some weight and get some exercise if you are finding that men don’t like to see you in lingerie. It’s completely abnormal.
Our putative Ivy re-enters the thread with the brilliant “not all men are like that” straw man. Clearly, the global lingerie industry (and the concept of female adornment generally) is an accident of history, signifying nothing.
“And yes all men like lingerie.”
Lingerie is not a staple of most cultures. In the cultures where it is, not all men like it
Because in nomadic herding tribes in the uplands of Mongolia, women don’t wear lingerie. See? Not all men are like that.
“Because in nomadic herding tribes in the uplands of Mongolia, women don’t wear lingerie. See? Not all men are like that.”
Because across most of this planet women don’t wear lingerie.
BV,
Yet there are plenty of women online, Christian women no less talking about their sex lives. Is that appropriate or not? If not I expect you to say the same to to them, but that tends to not happen.
Dragon,
I said that for lack of a better word, to speak your language.
I don’t care what other people say or do. I don’t care what you ‘expect of me’ either, since your approval or disapproval is of no concern to me. Also, I don’t think your personal behavior is the subject of the OP. But if you do, great.
“Also, I don’t think your personal behavior is the subject of the OP. But if you do, great.”
No its about dragon and what a great seductress she is and how other women should aquire her skills. What I am saying is some can get the same results with out bring seducing. To each their own I suppose.
What’s textbook about this is that the OP is not about Dragon. It’s about how men think and respond. You overlooked the point of the post. Most women *do* have zero interest in the interior reality of men, and prefer their utilitarian virtues insofar as they enable female priorities.
So they don’t recognize even text by a woman that discusses a man’s interior life. They have no interest in that, and prefer to discuss their own, or why someone’s thesis is wrong because they disagree with it for unstated reasons, or because it doesn’t make them feel “safe”.
I mean, textbook.
““Deeper!” “OMG you’re so big!” or screaming out during sex lets him know she’s addicted to him. Husbands crave this from their wives.”
The way dragon talks about this so favoriibly implies she must do it and is second handily talking about sex life and if she doesn’t then don’t see why it’s being suggested other women do.
You are, again, purposefully missing the point of the post (encouraging wives to look beyond themselves & seduce their husbands) by trying to twist it into something its clearly not. LOL… you insist on now referring to me as “dragon”… and basically say I’m not allowed to give any examples to women (b/c I’m Christian, I shouldn’t talk positively about sex to women – or give them examples etc. lol)…. You’re really reaching for a reason to attack. It’s a bit sad when taken into perspective what you stated on Donagraeme’s blog not that long ago about how much you hated seeing women blog about their lives – especially when they included pictures of their lives. Why you are even on my blog is questionable then, since you are so against women blogging with pictures about their lives. So the only other reason you are here, on my blog, is to Troll or attack.
I guess the only next step is to have a comment policy to deal with these new trolls I have… if you can’t be respectful to others here, if your only purpose is to attack the author, if you have no constructive or valid criticisms to give, but are only interested in attacking for attacking purposes only, then you will be spammed and not allowed to comment. The mere fact that you can’t even bring yourself to call me by my chosen blog handle Dragonfly, shows disrespect and questionable motives. You can have your opinions, but you have to remember you are posting on my blog, which I’m graciously allowing you to do. A comment policy takes your freedom to abuse that away from you.
Unreal. Yet another woman who can’t handle the slightest criticism or disagreement. I meant no dispresct by calling you dragon…it was for convenience in shortening your name since I have been responding on phone all day. Also why the typos. The guys at dalrock call you gwdft, I guess that is dis respectful too.
I think you thought I was calling you a dragon in the nasty dragon sense but it was purely to shorten your name but I guess I could have typed the 3 extra letters, so I apologize. Can we just agree to disagree or why do people always have to be written off as a troll because they disagree?
[Dragonfly] People who merely disagree are not trolls. People who misdirect the entire conversation for their own motives (yours being obviously to discredit me being a good Christian woman), and distort or try to attack the author’s intentions, or repeatedly comment on another’s blog just to try to get readers to take their “side” & dislike the author – all these things are much more than merely disagreeing. And the irony of doing it on that person’s own blog, right under their nose lol. I’ve seen that manospherians love drama… I’ve read extensively what you sought to do to other women bloggers you didn’t like. It is strange and drama seeking behavior, while at the same time allowing yourself to be so consumed with what those other women were doing that you would write posts about them (or about their behavior). It consumed you that much :/
The time spend commenting or writing posts about their behavior (or my behavior even), is probably best spent doing something beneficial to you… or your family… or your friends (anyone YOU care about). To spend so much time writing on their blogs, writing about them in your own posts, or trying to discredit them is drama-seeking. Its better to just live and let live – set the best example you can yourself for others, so that they can want to be like you from how they see you act. Writing posts about people’s behaviors that bother you is just giving them (or that situation) control over your mind and distracting you from better things in life – like actually living it.
Growth happens when you move beyond that phase of criticism of other people. When you choose to focus on your own life, the people in it, and how you are bettering those aspects instead of caring so much what others do online.
Have a Happy Easter, take a break from the internets this weekend and enjoy life!]
“Growth happens when you move beyond that phase of criticism of other people. When you choose to focus on your own life, the people in it, and how you are bettering those aspects instead of caring so much what others do online.”
The best thing Dragon Fly ever said on this site!
Happy Spring Break! Happy April! May all beings know peace!
“Deeper!” “OMG you’re so big!” or screaming out during sex lets him know she’s addicted to him. Husbands crave this from their wives.”
What if he’s not “so big”? What if he’s average or worse, lousy in bed, should she fake “being addicted”? I say no, because then he will never advance in his own venusian skills.
She can scream out something else instead. How about screaming out his name? Do it Pavlovian style. Use it as a reward for good sexual behavior. Perhaps at first this behavior will not be the best you’ve ever had but if you guide your husband and work to enjoy your sex life there is no reason you can not guide your husband to a sex life that is amazing for both of you.
“Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives,”
“She can scream out something else instead. How about screaming out his name?”
Not everyone is a screamer, and some men do not appreciate it, or even vocalizations. Some man on some blog was complaining that his wife screams out “I love you!!!” at peak orgasm and he was offended by that somehow. He didn’t like “love” being mixed with orgasm. Go figure.
Also its a cultural thing. In many, if not most, cultures around the world a couple does not live alone but in a joint family home shared by several other family members of multi-generations. There is not the privacy to go completely wild and scream during sex. We shouldn’t try to normalize or universalize what are the customs of a minority percentage of people on the planet.
“Do it Pavlovian style. Use it as a reward for good sexual behavior.”
This is alright but what if the sexual behavior is not good? That’s my point – by vocalizing as if it were, a woman would be communicating to him that whatever he’s doing is working to get her off, when its not. Signals can get crossed and he can continue on in his less than even mediocre bedroom skills thinking they are stellar!
“Perhaps at first this behavior will not be the best you’ve ever had but if you guide your husband”
Fully agree!
“work to enjoy your sex life there is no reason you can not guide your husband to a sex life that is amazing for both of you.”
Fully agree too!
This is off-topic, but in a similar vein to changing yourself for the better:
Dragonfly, you seem like a bright woman, may I ask why you identify yourself as Christian? You understand that it’s a “meme” or a mind virus, created by the same kind of crazies who are now killing each other on the other side of the world. They literally just cobbled old teachings together from a time where the most “civilized” folk still shit in the streets, and you were likely indoctrinated to all of this as a child before you developed any ability to reason for yourself.
You know how when your PC gets infected with malware and you start getting browser popups about local girls in your city who are young, hot and available? That’s your mind identifying itself as “Christian”, your church is the popup asking for your hard-earned money, and spamming your morals and values under the “Christian” label is how the virus propagates.
Ditch the label and the mind virus, become an individual with your own set of beliefs.
Weird, I thought this post had been deleted early.
Unless you were raised as a feral child, by non-humans in the woods, you were indoctrinated into something or another before you had any ability to reason for yourself. There are a few documentaries on feral children and you can see what stellar independent thinkers those kids end up as.
Your post is inflammatory and moronic in the extreme.
Of course there’s a balance though. There’s swallowing any given Kool Aid wholesale and taking tiny cautious sips all the while self-reflecting on one’s motives and the motives of the people who created the doctrine in the first place.
I’m sure that you believe that men and women are the same, or equal, or “equal” perhaps? Maybe there are other things you believe? Things you were taught in some studies class in college? Do you have faith in global warming, maybe? Or even other beliefs?
I think Anonyman was cautioning against swallowing Kool Aid wholesale, not throwing out information just because. Everything needs to be researched and reflected upon. Probably every doctrine has some good aspects to it that can be held on to while disregarding the b.s.
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I’d sum it up thusly. Short and to the point:
“Make love” like a mistress. (not a porn star)
Be the person he’d love to cheat with…but, heh, he’s married to you.
I think most every woman has this in her.
I think so too! At least, I hope every woman does!
Yeah Dragonfly but you titled the jpg of this picture “be your husband’s whore” not your husband’s mistress. I have nothing against sex workers and feel it should be decriminalized, though maybe not promoted culturally as an ideal career choice due to all the risks, but no, I don’t think a wife should be her husbands whore, nor a husband his wife’s male sex worker, pimp, john, whatever. They are, ideally, a divinely united couple, one heart, two bodies. Why not simply be your husband’s loving spouse and him vice versa? What’s wrong with the husband-wife conception that you feel “whore” is a better archetype for the bedroom?
Why not make love like a loving spouse? I find it odd how “wife” is not deemed appropriate for references to great sex but somehow “whore” or “mistress” is. Its really telling. Madonna/whore complex maybe?
I think the word change helps to shift one’s paradigm focus.
It’s the “job” of the whore/mistress to focus virtually entirely on the man’s pleasure. By contrast, the wife has a number of ‘hats’ (pleasure is an important one, but people often tend to put that on the wayside for other things, which I’m assuming is the intent of girlwithadragonflytattoo’s post and point and I think she made it well here).
“It’s the “job” of the whore/mistress to focus virtually entirely on the man’s pleasure. ”
Sure, in exchange for money. But love-making is not a “job” for spouses. Making love between husband and wife, two people in a loving relationship, not a business agreement, is very different from a career hooker and her client.
You sound like you’re a lot of fun at parties.
LOL!!!! Made me almost spit my coffee out, Liz!
Pretty sure if you were a space alien, you’d be the one employing the rectal probe.
Everything doesn’t have to be dissected down to minutia and trivial semantic-picking to be relevant. Discussion with you isn’t a conversation, it’s like listening to a weary PC polemic.
BTW, I don’t actually call it making love, I call it fucking. Just to overshare since we’re so close and you’re giving me wifely sex tips. I guess that isn’t very loving.
It’s unfortunate MYG still feels “safe” here, and hasn’t fled to a “safe space” where her Powerpoint intellect can drop life and wife lessons to her elders.
“Pretty sure if you were a space alien, you’d be the one employing the rectal probe.”
I’m a colon hydro therapist.
After filing for divorce with my wife of a decade I remember just being shocked and amazed at my first sexual experience after 10 years of just the wife. She kissed my neck. My ears. Left scratches in my back. This girl initiated on me. Even made me miss Game of Thrones. Honestly I was shocked. Stunned. I learned that day, from this woman I had known for only a few days, that I love having my upper right ear nibbled on. I have some severe scar tissue there and somehow it just drives me wild! Ten years with my wife. My WIFE. And I never knew how much I loved having my ear nibbled on.
Wow.
I’m so happy that you try to cultivate a full set of love with your husband! It’s such a relief to hear a woman speak proudly of her husband. All I ever hear women do is cut their husbands down. Constantly. I was honestly always so confused as to why my wife would cut me down, endlessly, yet still fully expect me to be a confident head of the household and a dominate man. Thank God the androsphere exists. At least now I know.
Thank you for commenting SoC!
I learned that day, from this woman I had known for only a few days, that I love having my upper right ear nibbled on. I have some severe scar tissue there and somehow it just drives me wild! Ten years with my wife. My WIFE. And I never knew how much I loved having my ear nibbled on.
Wow.
Wow! I can’t imagine that people live in marriage that way (I’m so sorry that was your case) – but I keep reading stories like that from the manosphere (and I kind of guessed it was like that before I found you guys, but I didn’t think it was as common as it seems to be). I think my husband and I are really lucky. Our first year was spent just reveling in and purely enjoying an exploratory intimacy – it definitely set the tone for the rest of the years I think. Plus I happened to work at a Christian bookstore that had every marriage book imaginable. I would read a lot of them on breaks or during slow periods when there was nothing to get done really.
I loved reading about marriage and how a wife should treat her husband; it fascinated me! Especially how to have a great sex life – since it was obviously so needed for the man (and the woman too, but I more so the man in most cases). I remember praying that God would just bless our sex life – to blossom it into something beautiful… and He was faithful.
I’m so happy that you try to cultivate a full set of love with your husband! It’s such a relief to hear a woman speak proudly of her husband.
Thank you so much :) I’m glad I can write about these things now, I’m glad I can reach people in what they may be going through. I know I’ve made a lot of wives think – and that’s great! I’ve gotten a lot of positive feedback in writing for married couples, so at least I feel like I’m doing something rather than just blogging. I started out blogging just as a creative outlet solely for myself… but its turned into much more than that.
“I loved reading about marriage and how a wife should treat her husband; it fascinated me! Especially how to have a great sex life – since it was obviously so needed for the man (and the woman too, but I more so the man in most cases). ”
From my experience in counseling many women, this is not the case. I’ve said it before but its really true that if a woman is healthy and has at least a moderate libido (what to speak of a high one), and especially if she is under 50 years of age, if she is not initiating sex with her husband, there is something wrong there and many times its that she is not getting sufficiently sexually satisfied by her husband. I don’t know how many women I’ve counseled that complained of their husbands not being skilled in the erotic arts. Some of them had experiences parrallel to StringsofCoins above – they were shocked at what a difference a skilled and consciencious lover makes.
Its pretty much a given that once a man has an erection, sexual intercourse will end in an orgasm for him. That is not a given for a woman, forget about multiple orgasms, which are possible alone or with a skilled partner.
While I think most men get more pleasure in sexual intercourse than masturbation, its sometimes the opposite in women. This is why Nicole Daedone and her OneTaste are doing great work for humanity.
I’m quite sure I know quite a bit more about the sexual behavior of adult heterosexual women, MYG, than you have acquired “counseling” a few other tender immature chicks while rehearsing cliched talking points better acquired on Jezebel. Or, Oprah. Rave on.
I’m sorry you had such a bad experience with your wife. :-(
I think, just as people get into good patterns and habits they can also get into bad habit patterns that kind of create a negative feedback loop.
I think really small, simple and consistent behaviors can have a big impact over time. Cleaning a relatively clean house is easier than cleaning a filthy one no one after the dirt piles up. Getting in shape when one is relatively fit is a lot easier than getting in shape after years of couch potato behavior. It’s a lot easier to learn when one is just building off of what one has been learning, rather than having to reinvent the wheel.
And so forth. A little extra loving care goes a long way. Women should know this, and I think they did at one time. That’s been replaced by selfishness (truly Christian behavior is so un-Cosmopolitan, and anti de rigueur these days! can’t have that…it’s anti-independence of thought. See anon above for details….)
“I’m sorry you had such a bad experience with your wife. ”
Thanks but we parted amiably and maintain good ties for the sake of our kids. We are both better people without each other.
I’ve read enough of blogger lgrobins’ writing to understand why any woman blogger might get a little on the defensive when she shows up, but I think she was offering a true argument in favor of using words carefully.
It’s a peeve I’d call it, that conservative leaning people allow ourselves to buy into the use of language as established by those who are heavily invested in the populace being ignorant.
One does not have to seduce a husband is was the point I took away. Seduction, in the truest and most conventional sense of the word is a bad thing because it indicates taking someone to a place where they should not or do not wish to go using manipulation .
Saying that does not necessarily indicate promoting prudishness or an unwillingness to passionately love one’s husband, physically or otherwise.
I do believe you meant well and that it wasn’t your intent to buy into the cultural narrative of evil as good and good as prudish, but as a people who thirst for truth, we have to be willing to hear new information and take corrective measures if that information and correction is true, regardless of the source.
Since I found this thread via lgrobins’ blog and she weighed in on lingerie, I’ll add an opinion on that as well. I have found that it’s much cheaper, and a much more direct form of invitation and willingness, to wear nothing at all to bed. No seduction required.
I’ve read enough of blogger lgrobins’ writing to understand why any woman blogger might get a little on the defensive when she shows up, but I think she was offering a true argument in favor of using words carefully.
No… she clearly said what it was about “No its about dragon and what a great seductress she is and how other women should aquire her skills. What I am saying is some can get the same results with out bring seducing.”
The point of the post was to show that women who most often use this Art of Seduction are not wives – because wives are ignorant as to what the men really want in marriage. Mistresses and prostitutes seduce… porn seduces in its own way… but wives could care less to get their husbands to feel like that. That was the point. Glad you missed it though.
One does not have to seduce a husband is was the point I took away.
Congratulations! You don’t think wives should seduce their husbands – you go girl! Keep on mistaking that this was about the wording instead of the deeper meanings behind it.
but as a people who thirst for truth, we have to be willing to hear new information and take corrective measures if that information and correction is true, regardless of the source.
You need a dose of your own prescribed medicine. If you cannot let yourself see that she was not at all here about the wording, but was solely on my blog so that she could attack me (she stated it was about ME being the seductress – this was her real problem, the wording was her mask to get any illusion of having a valid argument against me). If you cannot let yourself see that she was purposefully looking for drama – she hates women’s blogs that have pictures, I’ve read her comments on Donalgraeme’s blog about it, they sounded like an insane person when she wrote it. If you cannot see that for what it is, then YOU are the one (lol) that needs to thirst for Truth (what she was REALLY doing, and on the weekend of the Lord’s holiday of all things – she just couldn’t let it go, and for her own evil pride and purposes). You need to hear this new information about your beloved Laura, she willingly goes out to other women’s blogs that she already knows she strongly dislikes (using pictures), picks fights with them because she already has something against them in her heart, a root of bitterness that she refuses to deal with herself with God. She is a very sad woman. I felt so sorry for her in a very deep way. I did not expect her to write about me or this post (and no, I have not read what she wrote, I know it would only hurt me and my spirit).
Since I found this thread via lgrobins’ blog and she weighed in on lingerie, I’ll add an opinion on that as well. I have found that it’s much cheaper, and a much more direct form of invitation and willingness, to wear nothing at all to bed. No seduction required.
That’s your own biased and ignorant opinion, thanks for sharing and trying to take her “side” on this – to me, that is very immature. It is only opinion like you say, why state it unless you want me to expressly know that you take her “side” and want to perpetuate the drama that Laura wants. You need to understand that she sought drama, when I offered her peace, she continued the ugly drama, letting it possess her and touch others like yourself. God doesn’t want us debating about whether wives can seduce their husbands (ESPECIALLY on Easter weekend!!!). God doesn’t want us to debate about lingerie based on our own stupid opinions. Please…. Give it a rest. I’m not going to read her post that she wrote seeking drama with me, and I’m not interested in your opinions. You should be really interested in what God wants, not what Laura wanted to prove.
Also, the fact that she CHOSE to make such a big stink about it on Easter weekend let me know that what she was doing was particularly evil. That I shouldn’t give her drama-seeking (unChristian) behavior the time of day.
It would be interesting to see how many people she misled though, on the Lord’s weekend, by her drama-seeking and evil in purpose post. I wonder how many comments and views she got for that? All for her selfish pride in trying to prove the word seduce is wrong. That I was wrong and that she was merely innocently disagreeing. She adulterates the Lord’s Easter weekend for her own purposes and you come here to perpetuate her deeds.
“One does not have to seduce a husband is was the point I took away. Seduction, in the truest and most conventional sense of the word is a bad thing because it indicates taking someone to a place where they should not or do not wish to go using manipulation .”
That is absurd. To seduce means to entice. Enticement plays a large part in sexual desire.
So unless it is your point of view that sex is the equivalent of the evening “constitutional” along the same lines as taking an exlax tablet (and good luck with that), seduction is pretty key to pleasure. That’s one big way a woman shows her man that she values him.
Ugh you people are so incredibly annoying. Nobody cares that you can cherry pick some definition that dragonfly did not use and twist her words into blasphemy. The strawman you are tilting against is so absurd and ridiculous that I struggle to understand if you are either very slow or just simply evil.
Here is a good post that dragonfly’s wonderful post, clearly filled with a wife’s Godly love for her husband, ties into. Let’s say that you could learn how to be less ugly from this post.
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2014/01/01/feminists-are-ugly/
Don’t let the sins of pride and envy cause you to discount the wonderful expression of Godly love dragonfly has shared with us in this post. We can make wonderful and strong marriages. But in order to do so we must have both a good husband and a good wife. The fact that some insane cult has caused half the population to believe that they never have to try to be good, and that it is insulting to them to even suggest it, clearly demonstrates that this cult is doing the work of Satan. Satan is jealous that he will never get to experience being a husband and father so he wants to take that away from all of us.
Stop doing Satan’s work. Stop harming marriages. Stop encouraging women to be ugly.
Thank you for that link to Dalrock’s site String of Coins! Great post!!
“I have found that it’s much cheaper, and a much more direct form of invitation and willingness, to wear nothing at all to bed. No seduction required.”
Many men would agree with you.
LOL… Seduction can even just be a glance. A smile. Maybe Laura is right… maybe I shouldn’t mind being what she said, “the great seductress.” LOL My husband sure doesn’t mind.
I commented in good faith, Mrs. Dragonfly. I have no interest in “drama” and mostly read all posts in a reader, avoiding comment threads. Always have. The last time I engaged was over the very same issue: word etymology (“nice” was the word last time).
My concern is that most modern “conservatives” fail to understand the power of language and how its manipulation can lead us down the wrong path. It just so happens that this was one of the rare times I was so enticed to comment. Pun intended.
I am not taking a side. I noted at the top of my comment that I recognize the inherent limitations of a woman trying to converse with lgrobins and that she seems to have some issues with women that can preclude dialogue.
It doesn’t change the truth, that words and their origins matter. That in a marriage, an excess of extra added labels and strategies can be a sign of a wrong thought process. None of that was meant to imply that a wife shouldn’t love her husband with abandon, be feminine, alluring and free in the relationship.
I was only here to shed light on the problems with the word seduce. It’s unhealthy to always be looking for the angle. There wasn’t one. But since we’re talking words, it’s kind of apropos for the subject of seduction to be coming up during the celebration of Eastre. It’s perfectly valid subject matter. Take a look.
I suspect however, that your intention was to convey a concern about sexual discussions and the introduction of strife-filled drama during the Christian celebration of Messiah’s Resurrection. The two things are actually NOT the same.
See? Words mean something. Oh, and try not to be so quick to bare your claws. It’s unbecoming a feminine woman.
OMFG. Take your concern trolling and shove it up your behind.
I think you did comment in good faith… and maybe I should learn to be gentler in my communicating style. My husband is a master of “taking crap with dignity and style,” aka Verbal Judo – Japanese “ju” = gentle, “do” = way… the Gentle Way of communicating with such types like Laura. I seem to constantly run into people like this, and consequently fail to react the right way, but I am learning and I have a great teacher!
It is just very annoying to have to defend myself to self-righteous, strife-craving women who (in the Bible’s own Word) have a “sick interest in arguing over words.” Especially that she chose to distract people on a weekend she should have been more aware of the higher purpose than her own petty one. I’m glad I didn’t get distracted by her after this last Friday, it was very good I ignored her drama for my own benefit… but I am genuinely sad that she wrote a post that Saturday – the eve of Easter – letting the whole disagreement again, consume her & also distract people from pondering God’s sacrifice for us, instead they were pondering whether or not she was trolling, or whether or not “seduce” should be a word used by a Christian woman.
She goes out to pursue strife and conflict with others, and then wants to be seen as the victim for enduring consequences of being seen as a drama-seeker.
You’re showing a lot of leg. Please cover up.
People seem to be against breastfeeding in public in this country as well. So confused when it comes to the human body and its natural purposes and functions. Poor babies.
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Related topic. From this page I clicked on your “Why Mistresses Get Your Men” blog that was recommended above as “related”. There is said, “Mistresses Ask For and Give Oral Sex – “For many Christians oral sex is strictly taboo. There are as many biblically – based opinions on the matter as there are Christians. ”
I am curious about this. Christians I’ve talked to about this have explained that masturbation falls under “onanism” what they said means allowing one’s seed to go to waste, which they claimed was a sin. They also claimed oral sex falls under onanism. Is this true?
Your curiosity seems very genuine.
Christians call it “oral lovemaking”. Then, we sacrifice a better-than-average sized cat to make sure there’s a good corn harvest.
Very, very genuine. Generally, though, I just sacrifice some dental floss.
I’m a bit of a culturephile and obviously understanding various cultures and why they think the way they do and act they way they do is increasingly important as the world gets smaller due to technology and “the global village” or whatever. I had never heard the term “onanism” before and wanted to find out more about it. Since Dragon is a Christian I thought she might be able to explain. She promotes oral sex here so maybe that doesn’t fall under “onanism”?
Anyone?
Just googled it.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/onanism
Appearantly in the Bible what Onan did was seen as a good thing but, and I qoute, “The moral of this verse was redirected by those who sought to suppress masturbation.”
Obviously oral sex would fall under that redirection as well. Who redirected it and why? What is current Christian policy on the matter?